tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post1454889224199193270..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: A pan-Orthodox directive on Holy Week & PaschaByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-12376713378571534462020-04-05T16:33:45.919-05:002020-04-05T16:33:45.919-05:00CopyCopyJacob Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057383081686587516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-20571523425895433722020-04-05T16:24:19.017-05:002020-04-05T16:24:19.017-05:00No. I am saying that I keep getting accused of pas...No. I am saying that I keep getting accused of passing judgement on bishops (not by you). I am saying that disagreeing with them and pointing out their errors is not passing judgement on them. God is their judge.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-2638297241850187042020-04-05T15:21:33.193-05:002020-04-05T15:21:33.193-05:00Um, no. No on that article being very useful - I ...Um, no. No on that article being very useful - I would call it "soundbite history" but I am not sure it even rises to that level. For example, the idea that Chaucer is indicative of "criticism of church/priests" after (as opposed to before) the black plague is bad medievalism.<br /><br />No: the black plague might have stressed the medieval church/state/cultural synthesis in all sorts of ways, but if you take that articles conclusions (such as they are) seriously then it follows that the priests/bishops/church should have been more careful around how they served the sick - this is the opposite of what you and Mikail have continually argued for.<br /><br />No: "we" (i.e. normative "canonical" Orthodoxy) are not "following the Catholic's lead on this one", and no a False Union is not immanent.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-25734730091381759212020-04-05T14:43:43.381-05:002020-04-05T14:43:43.381-05:00Don't expect California Churches to be open by...Don't expect California Churches to be open by the fall. If they aren't going to allow football, our Churches won't be open either. Football is the secular religion. https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/04/coronavirus-will-fans-pack-nfl-stadiums-for-week-1-dont-count-on-it-gov-newsom-says/amp/Jacob Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057383081686587516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-83126306309455740212020-04-05T14:35:31.019-05:002020-04-05T14:35:31.019-05:00https://www.medievalists.net/2015/02/priests-black...https://www.medievalists.net/2015/02/priests-black-death/<br /><br />The last time the Catholic Church faced the plague it did not end well. Their decline can be traced to their actions. We are following the Catholic Churches lead on this one. Jacob Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057383081686587516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-62982716105977705422020-04-05T14:32:49.499-05:002020-04-05T14:32:49.499-05:00"It's the irrational behavior of people t... "It's the irrational behavior of people that in the end will determine the long term effects of this decision."<br /><br />I agree with the insight behind this assertion: that we are largely "formed" by forces larger than our discursive reasoning and inner chatter (though I would not call them "irrational" - on the contrary they are Provenditional and thus "suprarational"). <br /><br />Yet, at the same time your argument itself rests on an equally "rational", that is the Sacremental life of the Church is somehow a mere "rational" bulwark against the irrational and dark forces of nature - or principalities and powers. On the one hand it is, as we affirm during every Divine Liturgy when we say "...this rational and bloodless sacrifice". On the other hand, we don't reduce the Sacrements to the *mere rational*. They are larger, and thus more flexible than that. They can "handle the real" as the say - and this pandemic is very very real.<br /><br /> The Church is not threatened or in danger by this pandemic anymore or anyless than it has been threatened in the past by war, flood, calamity, unbelievers, persecution, plague, islamic hordes, crusaders, Mongals, Communists, or any other created thing.<br /><br />Truly pastor Jake and Mikail, take a breath. Believe it or not, our humble hierarchy are both more faithful, experienced, and wise then either you of you are wanting to admit.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-44176773847152892712020-04-05T14:23:20.630-05:002020-04-05T14:23:20.630-05:00Did I say they were going to hell?Did I say they were going to hell?Jacob Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057383081686587516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-62219794452941265172020-04-05T14:18:56.806-05:002020-04-05T14:18:56.806-05:00"...the argument is not whether you believe t..."...the argument is not whether you believe they "work". The argument is whether you think Holy Unction or Holy Communion can spread disease to you..."<br /><br />I agree with you here, in that this is a central pillar of the disagreement. Theologically, it is what the "Docetic Eucharist" debate is all about. <br /><br />Yor and pastor Jake's problem, is that while some (but not all) bishops have affirmed a "strong" version of the transubstantiated/docetic Eucharist, not all have - and even those that have (such as Met. Isiah of Denver) have made equally strong, and thus seemingly opposite, economic accommodations which include pastoral adjustments for those who suffer celiac, and now these temporary extraordinary changes to our pietistic and liturgical routines. Note well, this ALSO includes you both tend to lean on as "conservative" or "traditional" in your usual us vs. them mode, such as ROCOR, Moscow Patriarchate, Antioch, etc. etc.<br /><br />So the theological has been "swallowed up" as it were by praxis, the normative economic action of God and real human beings in the Church, and other *larger* considerations. It turns out that theology and even belief are themselves but servants to our salvation.<br /><br />All this to say, this is one argument (to put aside the question if it is really your "responsibility" in the first place) your not going to win, because even if you win, you lose. As a person with strong "intellectual" tendencies I don't like it either, but it is nevertheless the situation of our existence and the Church we find ourselves in.<br /><br />Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-16915700804372327002020-04-05T14:12:55.420-05:002020-04-05T14:12:55.420-05:00Yes, Jacob. We are permitted to call the bishops o...Yes, Jacob. We are permitted to call the bishops out for their abhorrent decisions, but we do not judge them. God is their judge.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-39210650653943311162020-04-05T13:50:06.099-05:002020-04-05T13:50:06.099-05:00Anybody notice they consulted insurance profession...Anybody notice they consulted insurance professionals? They should have consulted some behavioral psychologists. 3 weeks and counting new behavioral patterns are being formed. You can come up with rational arguments to close the Churches. It's the irrational behavior of people that in the end will determine the long term effects of this decision.Jacob Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057383081686587516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-20444018329258745912020-04-05T13:28:54.401-05:002020-04-05T13:28:54.401-05:00Why do you keep saying they are not magic? People ...Why do you keep saying they are not magic? People die in the flesh, no doubt. But the argument is not whether you believe they "work". The argument is whether you think Holy Unction or Holy Communion can spread disease to you. What say you Mr. Bauman? St. Nikephorus appeared in Bulgaria and said that the people must be in Church and that Holy Communion is the cure for coronavirus. I don't care if you believe that or not. I do.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-46482578636085532382020-04-05T13:23:06.363-05:002020-04-05T13:23:06.363-05:00It is within the scope of my responsibility to cal...It is within the scope of my responsibility to call out a bishop when I believe they are doing a disservice to Christ's holy Church, Mr Bauman. They are not infallible and neither am I. I do not love them any less. St. Mark of Ephesus pray for us.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-74969077193176539252020-04-05T11:54:35.108-05:002020-04-05T11:54:35.108-05:00Obedience also entails not making a judgement on t...Obedience also entails not making a judgement on those to whom you are obedient but loving them all the more especially if you disagree. <br /><br />Michael Baumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025213649848660526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-64455768343760562482020-04-05T09:27:50.544-05:002020-04-05T09:27:50.544-05:00I find it quite incongruous to make any statement ...I find it quite incongruous to make any statement about the Holy Sacraments "working". <br /><br />That is an oxymoron born of our descent into utilitarianism. <br /><br />People die despite unction, people get sick despite Holy Communion, people commit sins despite Confession. <br /><br />The Orthodox faith is not magic. An old mentor of mine used to say that if you were not able to know Jesus sitting on a curb talking to a homeless person, you did not know Him. <br /><br />Fr Stephen has a post on "Glory to God For All Things" about Pascha 1928. <br /><br />Michael Baumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025213649848660526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-50013948419268855752020-04-05T07:27:10.532-05:002020-04-05T07:27:10.532-05:00Yes, Father. Obey your bishop. But we don't ha...Yes, Father. Obey your bishop. But we don't have to agree with them. I believe history will not look kindly on the decisions they made for Christ's Church in 2020.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-51689835815100368792020-04-05T05:00:54.240-05:002020-04-05T05:00:54.240-05:00Both sides have valid arguments. Simple solution:...Both sides have valid arguments. Simple solution: obey your bishop.Archimandrite Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09894842027467584759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-38884221110250970182020-04-04T22:34:25.847-05:002020-04-04T22:34:25.847-05:00One last thought Timmy. Saying that the Church is ...One last thought Timmy. Saying that the Church is the people of God and not a building is partly true. It is both. St. Paul tells us that it is the pillar and foundation of truth. The protestants use your comment to justify the fact that they don't need to be in a brick and mortar building. Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-18108248530582819372020-04-04T22:29:49.163-05:002020-04-04T22:29:49.163-05:00Dear Timmy,
We will all die of something one day....Dear Timmy,<br /><br />We will all die of something one day. I did not say that receiving it would make you live forever in this world. I hope you are not implying that I believe that the Eucharist is magic. That is rather insulting. If you do not want to attend Liturgy...then stay home. But others should not be deprived who need to be there. And yes...St Paul tells us that sometimes receiving the Eucharist unworhily can make you sick...or even kill you.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-46002621051786364562020-04-04T22:22:29.562-05:002020-04-04T22:22:29.562-05:00Dear Timmy,
It would be wonderful if, like the gr...Dear Timmy,<br /><br />It would be wonderful if, like the grocery stores, the Church would let a few people in at a time. Our spiritual food is much more important than our physical food. And furthermore, somehow, I don't see St. Paul agreeing to shut the people off from the Eucharist because he is afraid of illness and/or disease. I am not saying that God's Grace does not exist outside the Church. God gave us the Church to partake of the Body and Blood of His Son...especially in times of trial and tribulation. They should not be closed...not even for a few months. My neighbor to the left wants to stay home because he has a compromised immune system. Let him stay home. My neighbor to the right is healthy and wants be in Church for the healing of soul and body. Let him attend. We should love all our neighbors. We should not lock a portion of them out of the Church.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-90117713271009414262020-04-04T22:10:44.518-05:002020-04-04T22:10:44.518-05:00Mikail,
One final thought for tonight:
The Church...Mikail,<br /><br />One final thought for tonight:<br />The Church is the people of God not a building. The doors of the building may be temporarily closed to the masses just like the grocery store I went to yesterday that only allowed a certain number of people inside a time so I waited outside in a spaced out line until it was my turn. However, the Church is still here for us. Yes, we may be doing thing very differently for a few months out of love for our neighbors, but the Church itself is still present & Gods grace is still being given to us.<br /><br />Keeping up with the St. Paul quotes: "I became all things to all people so that by any means I might save some."Timmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06833797224685670708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-76354529272590770662020-04-04T21:44:16.457-05:002020-04-04T21:44:16.457-05:00Mikail,
While holy communion is undoubtedly for t...Mikail,<br /><br />While holy communion is undoubtedly for the healing of our bodies & souls it is not magical or mechanical. Whether or not we are healed in soul and/or body is dependent upon our our faith/works/spiritual state. God's grace is always present, but often it is not able to take effect in us because we haven't prepared our hearts to receive it properly. As St. Theophan said, "God is alway with us, but we are often not with God."<br /><br />So while the Eucharist can potentially heal our physical diseases most of the time it does not. Case in point: St. Nikephoros still died a leper despite receiving communion and Fr. (?St.) Seraphim (Rose) still died of cancer despite receiving communion just to point out two examples.<br /><br />Jake's point was mere hyperbole not necessarily blasphemy. I think the difference hinges on the motive for making the statement, and in this case Jake was simply making the same exact point that I'm making, just in a sarcastic way, as St. Paul was so apt to do.<br /><br />If we throw caution to the wind and spike the number of cases of coronavirus infections then we'll needlessly be stacking bodies even higher.<br /><br />It's also worth noting that the early Christians received regular communion, and they were still turned into entertainment for the crowds by becoming lion food, firewood & whipping-posts in the circuses / arenas.<br /><br />Holy communion is a great mystery that we can't reduce to a magical/mechanical panacea. In fact, it's a double-edge sword as St. Paul so sharply reminds us.<br /><br />Just my two cents.Timmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06833797224685670708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-73128589216545673632020-04-04T21:17:12.729-05:002020-04-04T21:17:12.729-05:00Jacob Lee,
Unction still works. I don't belie...Jacob Lee,<br /><br />Unction still works. I don't believe anyone is saying otherwise. I can still personally meet my priest for communion, unction or even confession if needed on a one-on-one basis, which is the most reasonable & appropriate thing to do right now.<br /><br />The Mother of God is certainly with us protecting & praying for us. However, she's not a magician who shields us from experiencing the evils & tragedies of life in this fallen world. She experienced these painful realties herself, and she humbly & patiently endured them with faith in God's providence despite the fact that none of it made sense to the human intellect.<br /><br />I think it's important for us to remember that Christ doesn't save us from suffering the experience of evil & death, but rather He saves us from being destroyed by them if we accept & bear them as if they were our life-giving cross. Our Lord & our Lady have given us powerful examples of this.<br /><br />Orthodoxy is paradoxy: There's no resurrection without crucifixion. Kenosis is theosis.<br /><br />We are still Orthodox without big liturgies for a short period of time. This is a very unique & temporary situation. We'll get through this. We have to trust in God providence. We would all do well to follow the advice of the Psalmist, "Be still and know that I am God".Timmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06833797224685670708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-31117325643219886872020-04-04T20:49:16.174-05:002020-04-04T20:49:16.174-05:00Jacob Lee & Mikail,
I would humbly submit tha...Jacob Lee & Mikail,<br /><br />I would humbly submit that right now the ultimate work of love that our faith calls us to do is precisely to stay at home so that we don't accelerate the spread the virus.<br /><br />COVID-19 is incredibly contagious, and the more we go out & interact the faster it spreads. If we end up with too many people sick at once then people will die needlessly because there will be too many critically ill people at once to help them all.<br /><br />In my view as a doctor staying home right now is truly an ascetic / sacrificial work of love for the benefit of our neighbors.Timmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06833797224685670708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-68815795947843538542020-04-04T14:58:52.900-05:002020-04-04T14:58:52.900-05:00For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to ...For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.<br /><br />St PaulMikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-48781711510286588562020-04-04T12:27:47.737-05:002020-04-04T12:27:47.737-05:00Flames on a Mazda??? Not even a Baptist preacher c...Flames on a Mazda??? Not even a Baptist preacher could absolve such a sin!Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13110605584831640676noreply@blogger.com