tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post1869522520251303642..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Met. Elpidophoros on future of Orthodox-Catholic relationsByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-17537360287507077222020-10-15T21:15:46.907-05:002020-10-15T21:15:46.907-05:00"If thy eye offend thee, pluck it out..."..."If thy eye offend thee, pluck it out..." Mt. 5:29<br /><br />Michael Baumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025213649848660526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-84170055844943066742020-10-15T21:08:27.336-05:002020-10-15T21:08:27.336-05:00Why? Why? Michael Baumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025213649848660526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-3981393238256277902020-10-03T11:38:03.749-05:002020-10-03T11:38:03.749-05:00Joseph,
I suspect that whether it's "tru...Joseph,<br /><br />I suspect that whether it's "true" (i.e Traditional or Orthodox Christianity) or Christianity Americana in any of its guises (liberal, conservative, Calvinistic, secular, fill_in_the_blank) it would not matter. The Cartesian Self is a jealous god, and it knows that in our culture/civilization Christianity, even in truncated and "wrong" form, is the only other real option.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-76243304353739224372020-10-02T12:16:15.420-05:002020-10-02T12:16:15.420-05:00Jake, what is the "hate" based on? I wi...Jake, what is the "hate" based on? I wish it were based on a true Christianity, but I don't think it is. Instead, I believe the hatred of the political left is based on and is against a secular "Christianity". I can't really blame them for their hatred either, because I hate it too.Joseph Lipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361879846966270399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-1372164975830140822020-10-01T09:46:54.238-05:002020-10-01T09:46:54.238-05:00Joseph,
I don't agree with your premise that ...Joseph,<br /><br />I don't agree with your premise that Donald Trump is the (or even "a") source of "backlash". They already hated us before Trump, and they will hate us long after he is gone. Indeed, if Trump was some sort of paragon of Christian (or any other) virtue they would still hate him and us and still persecute us. Trump is beside the point.<br /><br />I do agree with you that American Christians (i.e. Christianity Americana) in the main is that schizophrenic mix of vague Christian belief and secular assumptions about man and God. American Christianity (and western Christianity in general) is one long story of secularization.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-61718445808788092122020-10-01T09:33:37.396-05:002020-10-01T09:33:37.396-05:00It would seem that the correct political position ...It would seem that the correct political position for Orthodox is we need a Christendom, and then we're going to need a king, advised by a council of (male) elders.<br /><br />Good luck!The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-11958230349499361572020-09-30T21:19:35.846-05:002020-09-30T21:19:35.846-05:00Jake, I don't fault your reasoning per se. Ho...Jake, I don't fault your reasoning per se. However, I would like to point out that Donald Trump, whether we like it or not, has become the current face and representative of "conservative" American Christianity. He is the only person on earth that "conservative" American Christians will currently unite behind and support. This is how he became president.<br /><br />So when the backlash against Donald Trump comes to our doorstep, is the persecution we endure actually because of our faith? There's a big difference between persecution for our faith, and persecution for our own stupidity. Unfortunately, most American Christians probably can't tell the difference. Perhaps the elephant in the room for many American Christians is that Donald Trump and secular politics have become more important to them than Jesus Christ. <br /><br />Sure, faith informs politics, and politics informs culture. Yet have American Christians really even started the faith journey? It seems to me they're still mostly stuck in Egypt.<br /> <br />Joseph Lipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01215128284364536782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-46777205860524805702020-09-30T13:02:25.461-05:002020-09-30T13:02:25.461-05:00Forgive my sarcastic comment above.
Yes, the Arch...Forgive my sarcastic comment above.<br /><br />Yes, the Archbishop scandalizes. Lets pray for him and let the bishops handle the exocommunications.Marcelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14574713901122768231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-20566542184118912682020-09-30T12:54:31.400-05:002020-09-30T12:54:31.400-05:00Even if the posited understanding of ecclesial aff...Even if the posited understanding of ecclesial affairs were true, as Christians we should never desire that someone fall away but instead pray with pain of heart that Christ may turn them to repentance because as long as one breathes there is hope of repentance. Furthermore, to quote Abbot Elisaios of Simonopetra, "'Love does not seek its own', but desires communion with others, teaching us to sing in 'other tongues'. We cannot say 'we have no need of you', for without you our joy would not be complete (I Cor. 13.5; 12.21)."Marcelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14574713901122768231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-34449276997033074832020-09-29T13:12:47.504-05:002020-09-29T13:12:47.504-05:00Sorry, Unknown...he has already excommunicated him...Sorry, Unknown...he has already excommunicated himself.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-37017990520288385502020-09-29T11:22:40.420-05:002020-09-29T11:22:40.420-05:00Joseph,
Two thoughts stimulated by your excellent...Joseph,<br /><br />Two thoughts stimulated by your excellent comment:<br /><br />1) Yes, the majority tendency/habit among Orthodox is to assume that Christianities goal is to "Christianize" (or as you put it, 'reform') culture. Several reasons for this, not the least of which is that it has been the status quo for this Church of the East for about 1700 years. The idea that the real kairos of the present is something else is anathama (i.e. it's fear based, it's "fundamentalist", it's a denial of the Great Commission, etc. etc.) to deep deep habits of thought and praxis in Orthodoxy, particularly among the older generation who have yet to fully comprehend what secularism really means.<br /><br />2) I am going to vote Republican this election, but not because I believe in "Christian America", or the reform there of, etc. My reasons are more practical: the Republicans hate me a little bit less than the Democrats, and they are in fact the more "liberal" party. Thus they will be less likely to impose (up until recently mostly through judicial fiat, increasingly through legislative action however) LGBTQwerty philosophy on my religious school, ladies-with-penises into the changing rooms at my daughters swim meets (as was recently narrowly defeated in the Arizona state legislature along a party line vote), and the like. Granted, voting for Republicans is a rear guard action in the war against Egypt, but it makes no sense at all to vote for Democrats...<br />Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-69320481513268378772020-09-29T10:59:59.602-05:002020-09-29T10:59:59.602-05:00Joseph Lipper: Amen to that. Thanks for the commen...Joseph Lipper: Amen to that. Thanks for the comment.Palomnikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02543658872512777512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-6479449574889387842020-09-29T10:53:04.434-05:002020-09-29T10:53:04.434-05:00Jake, yes, as Americans we all live in a secular a...Jake, yes, as Americans we all live in a secular age, not a Christian age. The Christian Reformation was itself a movement towards secularism. If there is any Christian basis in America, it is secular/reformist in origin. What then is the appropriate prophetic response for Christians to this secular age? Attempts to reform secularism will only produce a "secular" Christianity. That's what we are surrounded by, and the secular/reformationist spirit is pervasive even among Orthodox Christians. The prophetic response of Moses to Pharaoh is perhaps more appropriate: "Let my people go". Moses made absolutely no attempt to reform Pharaoh and Egypt. Rather, his instructions were only to lead God's people out of Egypt into the desert. That was only way that an authentic Hebrew culture could emerge. It wasn't going to happen by trying to reform the Egyptians. The same could be said for America. An authentic American Orthodox culture is not going to happen by attempting to reform American culture. Yet the secular/reformationist spirit is pervasive even among "traditionalist" Orthodox Christians who mandate that Orthodox Christians vote Republican this November to reform America. That's just a secular/reformist mindset. It won't lead God's people out of Egypt, and it won't give birth to an authentic American Orthodox culture. Joseph Lipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01215128284364536782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-28590271675533809172020-09-29T09:18:36.431-05:002020-09-29T09:18:36.431-05:00I should add of course that this is not unique to ...I should add of course that this is not unique to the Greek hierarchy. After all, what is ROCOR and why does it exist after the Tomos to the OCA? What is Antioch, which doesn't even reside in Antioch?<br /><br />Hard questions, and I wish our bishops would get around to answering them.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-24860496356791014832020-09-29T09:16:12.807-05:002020-09-29T09:16:12.807-05:00rj - I think somehow defining the American Church ...rj - I think somehow defining the American Church would collaterally involve some hard work defining the American nation which nobody, not even the Americans themselves, wants to do.<br /><br />My experience of a lot (by no means all) of immigration is they don't really want Here; they want a better There. And so these communities transplant themselves and petition the Ecumenical Patriarch for an ethnic vicariate, so they don't have to get to know their neighbors and the Greeks never have to enthrone non-Greeks.<br /><br />A friend tells me a lot of American Greek Orthodox are upset and angry at a wealthy old guard that continues to hang on, but this is anecdotal.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-26892866928431407722020-09-29T09:07:35.374-05:002020-09-29T09:07:35.374-05:00Orthodox theologians and intellectuals would do we...<i>Orthodox theologians and intellectuals would do well to grok Taylor's thesis much better than they do now...</i><br /><br />Indeed.<br /><br />The realization that he was not experiencing the Church qua Church led a neurotic personality like Bruce Charlton to stop going.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-1198265367740608852020-09-28T09:41:31.423-05:002020-09-28T09:41:31.423-05:00Well Staretz Mikail, if you're in the mood for...Well Staretz Mikail, if you're in the mood for exocommunications, you could always do it yourself.Marcelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14574713901122768231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-15179627017260421892020-09-28T09:20:51.718-05:002020-09-28T09:20:51.718-05:00Abp Elpidophoros marched with BLM. Can this priest...Abp Elpidophoros marched with BLM. Can this priest excommunicate him? Please?Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-12279649605816084362020-09-27T23:24:54.528-05:002020-09-27T23:24:54.528-05:00But all of your verbiage does nothing to enhance o...But all of your verbiage does nothing to enhance our witness in America,,,,,we have not visible witness, ad such we have no seat at the table,,,,with no seat at the table how can anyone take our ministry, if we have one, seriously,,,,,the average communicant cares nothing about this theoretical gabbledygook,. However not being a visibly entity in their cherished country affects them daily,,,,doesn't it?r j klanckohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18000371679565046691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-77154904384542737612020-09-27T22:22:37.010-05:002020-09-27T22:22:37.010-05:00An Antiochian American priest has excommunicated a...An Antiochian American priest has excommunicated anyone who takes part in BLM demonstrations. Obviously violence, anarchy, law-breaking, looting etc cannot be tolerated. However, that is just the opportunist fringes, it is not what that movement is about. It is about restoring the human rights of all human-beings. All Lives Matter. I cannot see how anyone can be against that. As for some untrained and unintegrated crazy American convert, or rather semi-convert, from the conservative evangelicals, I think we can forget him. No priest has the right to excommunicate anyone.Marcelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14574713901122768231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-62950268233043968712020-09-27T17:53:00.680-05:002020-09-27T17:53:00.680-05:00Where exactly would Orthodoxy move to? The Russia...Where exactly would Orthodoxy move to? The Russian/slavic churches have no better answer to this secular age, and internally no better ecclesiology (i.e. a coherent theology of Unam Sanctam) then the Greeks - heck, if anything their model answers fewer questions, even if it is a safe harbor for those very very afraid of the EP's emphasis since 1920 or so. Fear, and the crude removal of fear (in the sort of small minded way you propose Mikail), is not in itself a plan or theology/ecclesiology...Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-51099398572033391172020-09-27T17:47:04.665-05:002020-09-27T17:47:04.665-05:00Amen. For OCL and the like minded, "administ...Amen. For OCL and the like minded, "administrative unity" is the equivalent of "dialogue" for the ecuminists, in that it can't possibly carry the weight of all that is put upon it. Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-62292111643686476782020-09-27T17:44:20.496-05:002020-09-27T17:44:20.496-05:00In the end this defense of institutional ecumenism...In the end this defense of institutional ecumenism is an anachronism - yesterday's disproved ideas (e.g. that "dialogue" can carry the weight of ecumenism's expectations) as well as yet another defense of that reflexive and tired liberalism (cultural and theological) of so many in the Church during the middle/late 20th.<br /><br />I want to point out two things:<br /><br />1) Archbp Elpidophoros use of Charles Taylor is sophomoric at best. Taylor's central thesis is not that ours is a secular age in the sense of diversity (such that there are Christians, and secularists, and fill_in_the_blank all living side by side but "siloed"). On the contrary, Taylor's thesis is that we are *unified* within an overriding meta-story and conscious (both individual and corporeally) that itself is first and foremost *secular*. In other words this secular age, and everyone in it - including, ESPECIALLY, Christians! - have a fundamental first commitment to a secular understanding of the Creation, God, and people/relations/Church. In this way Taylor does not support Elpidophoros diagnosis nor solution. This leads me to...<br /><br />2) If Taylor is right, and I think he is, then Meyendorff was wrong as well in that the Greco-Roman political, cultural, and religious milieu was many things but one thing it was *not* was secularized. Thus, secularism is not a problem of symbiosis vs. 'otherness' as a kind of Church/state/culture disposition. For Christianity in a secular age, the problem is not secularism "out there", not primarily. The problem is rather one of the secularism within - each and every Christian in this secular age is secular first, Christian second, which of course has several and deep implications.<br /><br />Orthodox theologians and intellectuals would do well to grok Taylor's thesis much better than they do now...Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-41447712825121829302020-09-27T12:42:52.932-05:002020-09-27T12:42:52.932-05:00Amen Mikail. Amen Mikail. Michael Baumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025213649848660526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-91528312479470270452020-09-27T12:42:27.045-05:002020-09-27T12:42:27.045-05:00Because, "real Christians" march with BL...Because, "real Christians" march with BLM or it just so gauche. Michael Baumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025213649848660526noreply@blogger.com