tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post1884850473559075903..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Latvian Orthodox Church seeks independence from MoscowByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-79419295065831895132022-09-17T13:06:55.340-05:002022-09-17T13:06:55.340-05:00Sometimes the secular political forces that are th...Sometimes the secular political forces that are thrust upon the "mother church" prevent it from granting a new autocephaly. This seems to be the case with Russia now, but it was often historically the case with Constantinople too. We can see, for example, how Constantinople often resisted the autocephalies of national churches. However, eventually those churches are recognized when the "mother church" is no longer bound by those same secular political forces.<br /><br />Conversely, the Vatican asserts itself as a politically neutral sovereign state, but it has yet to recognize or grant autocephaly to anyone else. The RCC really is a different papal ecclesiology.<br /><br /><br />Joseph Lipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361879846966270399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-82917034161839470172022-09-17T10:02:24.720-05:002022-09-17T10:02:24.720-05:00What I meant to insinuate - do I really need to sp...What I meant to insinuate - do I really need to spell it out? - was that in all three cases "the Church" - meaning the bishops in particular, but also the clergy and (more difficult to prove) the generality of the laity - was not "seeking" what was thrust upon them from outside. Should the Moscow Patriarchate stigmatize the acquiescence of the Latvian Orthodox bishops in the enforced severance of the Latvian Orthodox Church from its "jurisdiction" as a schismatic act, it would seem to me to be little different on an ecclesiological level from how Rome viewed the events of 1559 and 1957 (putting aside the differences between Catholic and Orthodox ecclesiologies).William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09043433059401608468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-61821394074704919602022-09-17T08:56:47.875-05:002022-09-17T08:56:47.875-05:00"...Latvian Orthodox Church "seeks"..."...Latvian Orthodox Church "seeks" independence from Moscow in the same sense..."<br /><br />I admit it is hard for me to imagine this Dr. Tighe - that a substantially same "sense" or "spirit" is behind these three diverse events within the life of the Church. The turmoil of Reformation/Counter-Reformation western Christendom & Mao's China strikes as more different/unique then the same as the ethno-national "identity" and cultural (and thus political) "consciousness" that is the driving force behind so much of Eastern Orthodoxies ecclesiology and "autocephaly" since the break up of the Roman Empire.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-72321527407390282352022-09-16T21:15:29.375-05:002022-09-16T21:15:29.375-05:00In the light of the subsequent posting on this sub...In the light of the subsequent posting on this subject, it seems accurate to conclude that the Latvian Orthodox Church "seeks" independence from Moscow in the same sense that the Church of England "sought" independence from the papacy in 1559 (cf. the resolutions of the Convocation of Canterbury on the subject while the Supremacy legislation was being debated in Parliament) or the Chinese Catholic Church "sought" independence from Rome in 1957. It remains to be seen if the response of the Latvian Orthodox will be more, or less, supine than that of the faithful, and especially the bishops, who were faced with those situations. William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09043433059401608468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-38164478351876268302022-09-13T11:25:33.567-05:002022-09-13T11:25:33.567-05:00And yet Constantinople apolitically recognized eve...And yet Constantinople apolitically recognized even the Soviet "Living Church". <br /><br />True that the CofE was orchestrated by heretical Protestant reformers and with the backing of their king, but it begs the question of whether there would have been a Protestant Reformation had Rome not gone into schism first. At any rate, England has been at odds with the rest of Europe at various times in history, so some type of autocephaly was bound to happen.<br /> Joseph Lipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361879846966270399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-25273662538539564112022-09-12T23:06:47.355-05:002022-09-12T23:06:47.355-05:00JL. Whatever differences we may have with Rome, I ...JL. Whatever differences we may have with Rome, I don't think the comparison is fair. The CofE was, and is, plainly heretical. For its part the CPA is just a front for the Communist Party. I see them as a Catholic equivalent to the Sergianism in the ROC during the darkest days of Stalinist persecution. John (Ad Orientem)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14329907942477160166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-11685861376248248292022-09-11T14:27:48.708-05:002022-09-11T14:27:48.708-05:00After the schism with the Eastern churches, Rome n...After the schism with the Eastern churches, Rome no longer had a mechanism to recognize any other autocephaly apart from their one Pope. If Rome had not gone that route, then perhaps the Church of England and the Chinese Catholics would be recognized as autocephalous Orthodox churches today. Joseph Lipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361879846966270399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-3552272942958111942022-09-11T13:52:34.008-05:002022-09-11T13:52:34.008-05:00PLENTY of the various local Orthodox Churches were...PLENTY of the various local Orthodox Churches were created by different governments historically in the same way the Latvian government is doing now. If some modern Orthodox hoot and holler about Latvia, Ukraine, etc...then they should be honest and also start condemning their own autocephalies...Russia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc...Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04888192407349258556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-28114429767985799582022-09-10T19:30:16.141-05:002022-09-10T19:30:16.141-05:00Hoe does this government-created "Latvian Ort...Hoe does this government-created "Latvian Orthodox Church" differ from the Chinese Catholic "patriotic church" or even the Church of England as created in 1559?William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09043433059401608468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-89266204393306572322022-09-09T13:46:09.939-05:002022-09-09T13:46:09.939-05:00No. Folks such as me who recognize basic realitie...No. Folks such as me who recognize basic realities are no way forced into "becoming Roman Catholic" or any other (yet another simplistic) either/or. <br /><br />What it does mean is that we live in a grey area - nothing less than a 'glass darkly'. We don't have to pretend the mirror is clean...Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-69245492583384321082022-09-09T12:06:43.493-05:002022-09-09T12:06:43.493-05:00If i agreed with you Jake i would then brcome Roma...If i agreed with you Jake i would then brcome Roman Caholic since they have what you seem to hold as being most important.Archimandrite Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09894842027467584759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-664624516169557402022-09-09T11:15:32.401-05:002022-09-09T11:15:32.401-05:00"In this age of uncertainty and confusion, a ..."In this age of uncertainty and confusion, a man begins to ask himself certain questions..."<br /><br />"Is there one aspect of the faith you find particularly attractive?<br /><br />I think the hats."<br /><br />BAH!Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-76476915901285739322022-09-09T11:11:39.684-05:002022-09-09T11:11:39.684-05:00And that Faith "once delivered" is the d...And that Faith "once delivered" is the defacto ethno-national ecclesiology we all practice, even in places like Latvia where Orthodoxy is a small minority yet somehow central symbol of national identity and aspiration? No offense Archimandrite Gregory, but this sort of answer is just a platitude - simplistic avoidance of realities. <br /><br />I admit I used to talk this way, particularly to inquirers/catechumens. I don't any longer because it simply is not the truth.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-88142773588443949322022-09-09T11:09:19.411-05:002022-09-09T11:09:19.411-05:00"Latvian Orthodox!?" - Estelle Costanza
..."Latvian Orthodox!?" - Estelle Costanza<br /><br />"Wait, is this the group that goes around mutilating squirrels?" - Frank Costanza<br /><br />https://youtu.be/SC_gchsYFrM<br /><br />https://youtu.be/Vb5dOuipR_wJoseph Lipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361879846966270399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-41419772600486980432022-09-09T11:04:37.267-05:002022-09-09T11:04:37.267-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Joseph Lipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361879846966270399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-28735995944064195242022-09-09T10:54:26.223-05:002022-09-09T10:54:26.223-05:00Size nor savvy administrations are not signs of on...Size nor savvy administrations are not signs of one, holy catholic, aposolic church but rather adherence to to the Faith once delivered.Archimandrite Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09894842027467584759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-23421511046773169542022-09-09T10:13:44.584-05:002022-09-09T10:13:44.584-05:00Anyone know what was the LOC role in this legislat...Anyone know what was the LOC role in this legislation? Did they ask for it behind the scenes in an effort to give themselves legitimacy in declaring "autocephaly"?Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-31808599193157207032022-09-09T10:11:42.203-05:002022-09-09T10:11:42.203-05:00I'm seeing numbers for the size of the Latvian...I'm seeing numbers for the size of the Latvian Orthodox Church being around 300,000. The RC's are almost twice the size, and the Lutherans much larger than that. Now, will the Latvian parliament be demanding the same independence/"autocephaly" from the Rome and Pope Francis? Since the answer is no, why not?<br /><br />We know why: Orthodoxy is in fact a collection of ethno-national "churches" in a way Protestant and Roman Catholicism is not. Heck, if we are honest, we could say that the Protestant's and Roman Catholics are de facto more universal, more "ecumenical", more unified (i.e. as in "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church...") than Orthodoxy - at least in the sense of de facto church, state, and cultural relations.<br /><br />What's the place of Orthodoxy in Latvia? Many things no doubt, but one thing fer sur it is a "identity" and thus a cultural and thus political football between national aspirations and Russia.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.com