tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post2078740419292984134..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Albanian Church writes to ConstantinopleByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-11981478600067806312019-03-13T13:41:58.238-05:002019-03-13T13:41:58.238-05:00What seems odd to me, though maybe it shouldn'...What seems odd to me, though maybe it shouldn't, is that the statements addressed by Albania, Antioch, etc. to the EP criticize various canonical or jurisdictional points, but they do not address the bigger, overarching issue, which is the EP's assertion of universal appellate authority as well as the sole power, outside an ecumenical council, of granting AND revoking autocephaly. Undoubtedly the hierarchs of Antioch, Albania, etc. see the danger in this but they have refrained from publicly, directly disputing it as far as I can tell. The Jester of Qihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015274629532918121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-64325462607400977012019-03-13T13:15:01.634-05:002019-03-13T13:15:01.634-05:00You could reasonably argue that in the case of the...You could reasonably argue that in the case of the Ukrainian schismatics, economy should not have been applied, and moreover it was not the EP's call to make in any case. But the Church of Albania's argument seems to be more on the lines of a general principle- that it is impossible for schismatic ordinations to be validated retroactively by economy. The Jester of Qihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015274629532918121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-68073474240607559792019-03-13T13:03:36.628-05:002019-03-13T13:03:36.628-05:00Let me back up; it's not what I consider that&...Let me back up; it's not what I consider that's important. I just happen to believe that the strictness exercised by ROCOR is justified. In this day and age, strictness seems appropriate.But if we hold to the extreme of some Greek Old Calendar groups, that economia can NEVER be used when receiving converts, we would have to wipe some names off the calendar of saints. St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre was not rebaptised nor reordained. Tsarina Alexandra and her sister, Grand Ducchess Elizabeth, were received from the Lutheran church by chrismation.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-35905324771785919602019-03-13T12:45:40.082-05:002019-03-13T12:45:40.082-05:00That was a decision at the time. The hierarchy mak...That was a decision at the time. The hierarchy make that call. Later circa 1970, ROCOR was trashed by the OCA for rebaptizing and reordaning an ex Greek Catholic priest who had been received in the OCA..the reasoning was that no BISHOP of the OCA received the man.<br /> There were also instances where ROCOR would chrismated a convert and later the Church of Greece would baptize him. Not the Old Calendar Church of Greece, but the state church( new calendar).So there has never been 100% consultancy.<br /> I don't consider the mysteries of the Roman Church valid, but the EP seems to think so.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-60444101517412427612019-03-13T12:06:25.976-05:002019-03-13T12:06:25.976-05:00Right, but that doesn't mean that the ordinati...Right, but that doesn't mean that the ordinations of the Greek Catholics were somehow more valid. If the ordinations of the Ukrainians schismatics were of no effect, how could the ordinations of the Greek Catholics be? After all, the bishops who agreed to the unions of Brest and Uzhhorod were willingly entering schism, regardless of what tales they told their flock. But centuries later their descendents are received into Orthodoxy without reordination. The Jester of Qihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015274629532918121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-3875558347398185072019-03-12T20:48:26.512-05:002019-03-12T20:48:26.512-05:00The arrogance truly is breathtaking, as Samn! put ...The arrogance truly is breathtaking, as Samn! put it.Timmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06833797224685670708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-48130499455093967512019-03-12T11:05:30.106-05:002019-03-12T11:05:30.106-05:00I think, Joseph, the principle of economia was app...I think, Joseph, the principle of economia was applied. It was felt that the Greek Catholic people in question were Orthodox who had been decieved into a false union with Rome. Ukrainian and Rusyn peasants were told things such as "the Pope has become Orthodox " Up until WWII, in Czechoslovakia, Uniates were received into the church just by confession and communion. It was made clear that by receiving Holy Communion, they were joining their ancestral faith, and they couldn't go back and continue to commune in the Greek Catholic church.<br /> The present situation in Ukraine shows the Ecumenical Patriarch going back on his own word. I've said this before, and I'll say it again; Bartholomew could at least upheld the deposition from office of Filaret. He could have told Filaret " If you care about the good of the Ukrainian church, and for the sake of your own soul, you must live out your remaining days as a simple monk."BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-60154500164995348402019-03-12T08:30:22.827-05:002019-03-12T08:30:22.827-05:00I understand the argument Abp Anastasios is making...I understand the argument Abp Anastasios is making but doesn't this argument about valid orders apply equally to the Greek Catholics who, in various places, were received en masse into Orthodoxy, without reordinations? The Jester of Qihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015274629532918121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-81748307828947583622019-03-11T21:13:32.887-05:002019-03-11T21:13:32.887-05:00"But the reassuring conjectures of some that ..."But the reassuring conjectures of some that perhaps this will take place… in the next century are rather cynical. Serious injuries that are not treated in time are not healed by time. Rather, they expand and develop into incurable wounds."<br /><br />I'm very grateful for this statement, as it gives voice to my great frustration over those who have said this whole situation is no big deal because it will all get swept aside in 50-100 years. Not only is that incredibly cruel, to consign the faithful to suffering through schism for so long, but it completely ignores the reality that if that much time passes, the schism will more likely have become wider and more permanent. <br /><br />The great schism of 1054 could very easily have been viewed, at the time, as a temporary quarrel and personality conflict between Rome and Constantinople that would blow over once the right personalities came to power, but the devil is not interested in peace and while there was hope for peace in the beginning, time only widened the gap and the wound festered to the point of no return.<br /><br />History may well repeat itself if EPB doesn't have a change of heart.Sojournerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01283481525249234342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-80092341808227841392019-03-11T19:40:50.251-05:002019-03-11T19:40:50.251-05:00"I still don't see how the EP is going to..."I still don't see how the EP is going to be maneuvered into a council over this, but there will come a day when an unrelated event is held in Constantinople and no one will come for fear of being pictured with the popularly perceived metaphorical ecclesial bed bugs that are the hierarchs of the OCU..."<br /><br />Good point. These various letters/communications from Serbia, Romania, etc. have to my mind served to put a spotlight just how tenuous this Church of the East's unity really is. Besides a superficial agreement around canonical integrity of process and the need for a council, none of them seem confident of their own arguments and emphasis. The age old (well, at least since the fall of the Empire) questions come back - who has the authority (and don't mean letter of the canonical law - I mean actual spiritual authority/charisma)to call a council, how (or rather who) will it be organized, who will pay for it (particularly as it would have to be long enough in duration to actually solve the problems it was called to address), etc.<br /><br />Now that Orthodoxy is living in and encountering the modern world in earnest, the natural conservatism of this Church of the East is not maintaining even the appearances of basic/minimum ecclesial unity. Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-91243439381246224462019-03-11T18:14:43.927-05:002019-03-11T18:14:43.927-05:00https://www.romfea.news/bartholomew-the-ecumenical...https://www.romfea.news/bartholomew-the-ecumenical-patriarchate-and-the-patriarch-are-being-slandered/<br /><br />Pat. Bart concludes:<br /><br />“it is up to you to realize the truths that have been spoken, not to ratify them, since they are already certified by Ecclesiastical Acts, but to restore righteousness according to the precious and authentic experience of the Church Fathers”<br /><br />IOW, I did it... it’s correct, now it’s up to you discover that fact because I don’t need your assent. <br /><br />maximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01086218903799586114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-72582729803631838692019-03-11T18:03:59.046-05:002019-03-11T18:03:59.046-05:00Bartholomew preaches about humility in sermon for ...Bartholomew preaches about humility in sermon for the beginning of lent. How ironic.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-1682338069070349372019-03-11T16:50:52.537-05:002019-03-11T16:50:52.537-05:00What we're seeing right now is the process of ...What we're seeing right now is the process of determining how wide the cordon sanitaire around this Ukrainian group has to be-- a couple of missteps by the EP and, in the manner you describe above, it will de facto include Constantinople.<br /><br />The arrogance of Patriarch Bartholomew's reply to this letter, which hasn't been translated yet, is breathtaking.Samn!https://www.blogger.com/profile/14142811721903345946noreply@blogger.com