tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post3076656025791883389..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Clergy burnout? Totally your fault.Byzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-1535105442672052542017-07-05T12:08:32.803-05:002017-07-05T12:08:32.803-05:00An older article by Fr. George Morelli, with somew...An older article by Fr. George Morelli, with somewhat more practical advice and links to additional articles http://antiochian.org/node/22383Donna Farleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11884647995104136193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-47512158266609375322017-07-05T11:52:08.438-05:002017-07-05T11:52:08.438-05:00It appears that the bottom line here is "Go i...It appears that the bottom line here is "Go in peace, be warmed and be fed and be immune to burnout...... "Donna Farleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11884647995104136193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-32878509783000623062017-07-04T15:11:51.732-05:002017-07-04T15:11:51.732-05:00It can be even more complex Fr. George. I have be...It can be even more complex Fr. George. I have been Orthodox for 20 years now, and a part of 7 different parishes and as many priests (because of jobs/training my wife and I moved around quite a bit - thankfully we are more settled now). In two of those parishes (including our current one) the matushka's were/are "strong" personalities - stronger than their rather introverted priest husbands. They have many "ideas" (I will put it that way ;) ) of how things should be, some for good and some not. In both cases, they have put their husbands in between a rock and a hard place with their will. I am not sure about the first case (I was not on the board in that parish) but the bishop has had to do an intervention in my current parish. I was torn, because am I used to supporting my priest and I respect his decision for choosing/siding with his wife even when she is wrong (I would expect nothing less) but in more than one instance her willfulness is the source of real friction and he simply has no "right" way out of the dilemma.<br /><br />Like you say, life is hard.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-44851589298571477892017-07-04T14:42:01.272-05:002017-07-04T14:42:01.272-05:00In discussing this issue with a fellow clergyman w...In discussing this issue with a fellow clergyman who is lurking on this thread, he brought up the important point about how families of clergy are often central in matters of burn-out.<br /><br />While we priests may have perfect prayer that consoles us in times of torment, how does this translate to wives and children who watch their own husband and father struggle with parish dysfunction? How can I be spiritually fulfilled when my family is distraught?<br /><br />Yes, my wife and children have been shielded by me from the worst of it, but they have seen enough to know what is going on and resent it. After a enter into the heavens in the services and repent of my sins, how can I say all is well when my family still suffers?<br /><br />Burn-out often comes when a priest finds himself 'surrounded' by both parishioners and family who are in need of his unfailing strength and dedication. Eventually, one or the other fails: he loses the parish, or the wife. Divorce has been the #1 cause of deposition for my classmates. Many of them are better men than I am and certainly more talented as priests. Perhaps that alone may have been the cause, because everyone expected more from them than from someone like me.<br /><br />Perhaps some of you will be scandalized by me saying this, but if I have to choose between a parish and my wife, she always wins. I have a sacramental union with her, not the parish. I don't get 'divorced' when I get transferred, I just get a new praxis. And, if I found that my functioning as a pastor was too much for her, I would leave active ministry. Why? Again, because I have a union with her that cannot be tossed aside. Sure, I could say that I am 'putting my priesthood first,' but then I'd be out of both the priesthood and a marriage.<br /><br />Life is hard, and there are no easy answers.Fr. Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01377360010219230919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-72532854597413277952017-07-04T12:59:50.264-05:002017-07-04T12:59:50.264-05:00I agree dear Fr George, the physical and spiritual...I agree dear Fr George, the physical and spiritual health are both very necessary to being able to weather the storms. I'm joyful and prayerful for you in your upcoming new arena. Your prayers, forgive me Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15059201988043809350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-85599722410538564572017-07-04T12:36:47.801-05:002017-07-04T12:36:47.801-05:00Well, Fr. Justin, let's just say that when you...Well, Fr. Justin, let's just say that when you find yourself in less ideal circumstances, then perhaps you will understand what it is like to 'run out.' I'm not a saint for sure. Sure, I didn't pray enough, and never will. I was glad I caught myself before falling into the infamous "Five B's" of the Clergy.<br /><br />My solution has not only been to renew my prayer and study, but also to engage in a 'healthy lifestyle.' I've lost over 25lbs and exercise regularly. Working a punching bag really helps get the stress out of the body (and, no, I'm not thinking of anyone in particular when I do).<br /><br />Others have mentioned the 'bootstraps pulling' analogy, and I would say that there is a touch of that even with the admonition to 'pray harder.' It is more than that. When burn-out comes, it requires an entire lifestyle change. It may also require getting out of a toxic environment. Bishops know full well that not any priest can take any parish. Some work well and others don't. We are all individuals with different temperments and personalities. Sometimes it is not about evil, but just a mis-match.Fr. Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01377360010219230919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-83920978944257223722017-07-04T12:35:17.694-05:002017-07-04T12:35:17.694-05:00We all need more of Christ in us, more of the Holy...We all need more of Christ in us, more of the Holy Spirit. "Without Me, ye can do nothing," said Christ. Attempting to carry out a spiritual ministry and the ever-attendant spiritual warfare by human means will result in what may be called "burnout". The leaking roof is ultimately a spiritual problem in the referenced parish. Not necessarily more services are needed, but more of Christ, more of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of priest and people. More faith. More love. More courage. I read the lives of Saints Paisios and Porphyrios and see what mountains were moved by their faith and prayers. All things are possible for those who believe. Lord, help my unbelief!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-16221733327158468662017-07-04T12:04:39.110-05:002017-07-04T12:04:39.110-05:00"But we can control our love for God and our ..."But we can control our love for God and our serious constant repentance."<br /><br />Is that enough however? Also, do you *really* have control as an individual agent (in some Cartesian sense) or are you "built up" by the Body to a place spiritually such that you can do some good for yourself and others as an ordained man? What if I take all that away, and drop you alone in a hostile environment such that I wear you down and defeat you - then I tell you that you simply were not strong enough spiritually and this is your weakness and not the Body's?<br /><br />I don't think this is hard to hear at all - by the time your reach a point in your spiritual life that you are ordained or considering this stuff is second nature (or should be). It is however not the correct medicine for the subject at hand because the source of the problem lies elsewhere...Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-16600637580505457172017-07-04T11:59:10.414-05:002017-07-04T11:59:10.414-05:00Fr. George, may God continue to guide and heal you...Fr. George, may God continue to guide and heal you. <br /><br />That the term "Priest eating parishes" even exists is a sorry commentary on we lay folks and the hierarchy.<br /><br />Father, I have long felt that part of the problem is in how we tend to perceive hierarchy. In some cases "important" people in the parish look on the priest as a hired hand there to do their will.<br /><br />Other times the priest is resented as there to tell folks what to do.<br /><br />Both miss the point and make the interdependence of obediance impossible.<br /><br />I think it much healthier if we could have what I call nested hierarchy. It is an hierarchy which rests in and exercises authority in mutual love and respect focused on the true head, Jesus Christ. <br /><br />For hierarchy to function properly, the hierarch(priest or bishop) must be a part of the community--nested in it. The laity must also recognize that, although a part of the community,the priest and Bishop are also set apart without severing the connection. Only in that way, relying on God's grace can we bear one another's burdens.<br /><br />My brother is an Orthodox priest he is my brother but I never forget he is a priest and always strive to honor and respect that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Michael Baumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025213649848660526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-74050554229552626962017-07-04T11:54:14.925-05:002017-07-04T11:54:14.925-05:00Excellent subject Josephus Flavius, you should foc...Excellent subject Josephus Flavius, you should focus on it more. Two thoughts:<br /><br />1) On a recent podcast over at Good Guys Wear Black, Fr. Gregory Jenson recounts a story of when a RC priest told him that in Orthodoxy there is no "redundancy". Usually, Orthodox priests are truly out there on there own, with little contact let alone real support from either their bishops or any other clergy. How does he take a trip with his family, or even have a sick day? How does he have a bad day at the office because he *is* the office and there is no one who has his back?<br /><br />2) Our mission parish is sometimes served by a deacon from another jurisdiction who lives within 100 miles (close by our standards) whose day job is with the military. On occasion he has mentioned how the military understands that "resilancy" is a limited resource. A man can only go so long without food, sleep, shelter. He can only withstand the stress of combat for so long and depending on the intensity of the combat for not very long at all. Like any resource, resiliency is something that can be built up through training and supported through community (connection with others) and a strong sense of belief and understood purpose. All that said, even when properly supported, resiliency is at the end of the day still a *limited* resource.<br /><br />I am 1/2 way through our jurisdictions deacons formation program, and one of the most important things I have noted about the hierarchical Church as institution, as currently practiced in NA by all "jurisdictions", is just how threadbare our institutions are. I know some good bishops, and some bad bishops - but there simply is not enough of them (and they seem distracted by the unimportant). I know some good priests, and some bad priests - but they are almost always isolated. I know some good parishes, and some bad parishes - but they are all spiritual battlefields.<br /><br />This essay by Bishop Thomas (and Peter Schweitzer, whoever he is) is correct in its own limited way, but it is also profoundly naive. It laments a decent into a "secular" understanding of ordained praxis and proposes a seemingly correct spiritual acesis, but clergy already know this. The "buck up Christian soldier" recommendation would only work if the soldier is an actual soldier - that he has other soldiers to his right and left and an officer corps who make sure he is properly trained, properly outfitted, and properly resupplied during battle. A soldier who is isolated and alone (and providing for his own basic needs) on the battlefield is not a soldier at all but is instead a causality. St. Paul's military and athletic analogy's only make sense in community (either the military or the gymnasium - both communities).<br /><br />The reality of Orthodoxy in NA is what it is and is not Bishop Thomas' fault, and he actually can do almost nothing about it. That said, this prescription is simply not really what is needful, or at least it is only a small part. It even reminds me of another secular belief, the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" myth of self reliance. Perhaps Bishop Thomas dreams of cowboys on the American frontier who face the Indians, bears, and the elements alone in heroic individualism... ;)Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-59546457956958896752017-07-04T11:49:10.230-05:002017-07-04T11:49:10.230-05:00Why is this scandalous? It may be hard to hear but...Why is this scandalous? It may be hard to hear but it's important. I think you can embrace the truth of this and also the beautiful truths of the recently posted article by Abbott Tryphon. I know as a priest myself that we could all pray more and fast more and dedicate ourselves to Christ more, I at least know in my situation when I do that, then persecution, pain actually can bring immense Grace although that seems crazy to the world. Whenever I start thinking in a secular manner, whoa is me, etc...even the smallest hassle becomes impossible to bear. Of course I'm in a wonderful parish and I'm treated well and I'm so thankful for that. So I respect Bishop Thomas's approach, and I think all of my serious brother priests would agree that the only thing we can really control is our own spiritual life. Hopefully having a great parish and people learning how to love their priest is important, but ultimately at the end of the day we can't control that. But we can control our love for God and our serious constant repentance. I don't have it, but I want it and when I do strive for it singularly my life is joyful regardless of the struggles. Forgive meAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15059201988043809350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-29681568201524353182017-07-04T09:38:39.877-05:002017-07-04T09:38:39.877-05:00It is hard to say just from anecdotes. Since a la...It is hard to say just from anecdotes. Since a large number of my classmates from seminary have been deposed, I would say there is a problem that needs to be investigated. Some years' back, someone I know proposed studying depositions in North America as part of a DMin project. The idea was universally rejected as 'too controversial' by all of the jurisdictions which were approached for records. Unless the bishops agree to examine the problem, I don't think we will ever know.Fr. Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01377360010219230919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-54583282695292840532017-07-04T02:05:29.019-05:002017-07-04T02:05:29.019-05:00from what I read here and there it's hierarchy...from what I read here and there it's hierarchy and, to lesser degree, other priests that make a priest burn out and leave priesthood in most casesmikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05572603372579540256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-26867342163062874022017-07-03T23:39:35.645-05:002017-07-03T23:39:35.645-05:00Bishop Thomas is a good hierarch. However, I'...Bishop Thomas is a good hierarch. However, I'm not entirely in agreement with this. There are a few phenomena that ought to be explained first to make his theory plausible.<br /><br />1) Priest-Eating Parishes: there are parishes that regularly break the clergy sent to them. Is it just coincidence that these parishes seem to host 'softy' priests? Or, can circumstances push a priest beyond what a 'normal' spiritual life can provide?<br /><br />2) Pastoral Care of Clergy: the Church assumes that monks, even such lofty ones as St. Andrew of Crete, are under spiritual care. If a priest begins to experience burn-out, shouldn't the person responsible for the priest's spiritual care intervene? <br /><br />This essay seems to have a bit of "physician heal thyself" to it. To me, this contradicts what I was taught about how spirituality works. Clergy burn-out largely comes about because priests go virtually unsupervised in the most important parts of their ministries. Sure, you can look at finances and service schedules or rubrics as important areas for bishops to supervise, but how about whether a priest is showing *early* signs of burn-out? Do bishops know what to look for?<br /><br />I would have been much more interested had this article actually explained how Bishop Thomas has helped priests, or even a single priest, overcome burn-out through his suggested course of action.<br /><br />In my own case, I took a slightly different path. Not out of the woods yet, but things are looking up. At least I got my hope back.Fr. Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01377360010219230919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-82509404568934511712017-07-03T20:56:45.219-05:002017-07-03T20:56:45.219-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-28632449521958723882017-07-03T20:56:23.701-05:002017-07-03T20:56:23.701-05:00Michael, thanks to you and your bishop, I have gai...Michael, thanks to you and your bishop, I have gained respect for the Antiochian church. I had to respond to Julie because her extremist statements give fodder to nutcases like Misha who posts on Monomakhos.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-12103319225623700452017-07-03T19:45:21.447-05:002017-07-03T19:45:21.447-05:00Wow, as an Antiochian I am stunned. We live in co...Wow, as an Antiochian I am stunned. We live in community. We worship an Incarnate God. He does provide but we have to do the work to be open to His Providence. <br /><br />We have to be giving thanks and offering our lives on a daily basis.<br /><br />Small communities can be hell.It is easy to look for a scapegoat and it is often the priest. <br /><br />May be an apocraphal, but there is a story if my bishop visiting a parish where there was strife. As the Body and Blood were being served the parishoners all lined up to receive from the Bishop. The Bishop immediately covered the Chalice and announced that if they would not receive from their priest, they would not receive from him.<br /><br />So, if the people are not offering and receiving it is grossly unfair, uncharitable and wrong to say the fault is all his. <br /><br />Anaxios to that way of thinking. <br /><br />Certainly there are disfunctional priests, I lived under one and the parish he directed is still recovering over 20 years later. <br /><br />However it was not all his fault. The parish has a history of disfunctional prieats--gotta wonder. <br /><br />May God provide for all of His priests and the parishes they serve. We need to take care of each other.Michael Baumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025213649848660526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-77015557971922079572017-07-03T14:50:04.011-05:002017-07-03T14:50:04.011-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-39631897185400219792017-07-03T14:48:56.198-05:002017-07-03T14:48:56.198-05:00I'm sorry to be harsh, but I'm not going t...I'm sorry to be harsh, but I'm not going to stand for someone trashing the Sacrecent of Confession and the Jesus Prayer. I've seen bullies like that lady attack priests because they denied her boy communion. The boy in question might have been 40 plus, but was either married to an unbaptised person or to another man. So the priest in question was acting per order of his bishop. That didn't stop the harassment of his family. One priest made a costly unnecessary move to get away from the foolishness and his wife promptly died from the stress of moving. If Ms. Julie is Orthodox and really feels what she writes, I echo the words of the late Merle Haggard,"If you don't love it, leave it!"BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-85332054111438982942017-07-03T13:29:13.389-05:002017-07-03T13:29:13.389-05:00Thanks for the kind words.Thanks for the kind words.Byzantine, TXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-2664265908632248702017-07-03T11:15:59.466-05:002017-07-03T11:15:59.466-05:00That's right, Ms. Liberal! If you really belie...That's right, Ms. Liberal! If you really believe what you have written above, I feel sorry for you. You appear to believe you know more than Saints of the Orthodox Church.<br /> We should all realize one thing. The Church doesn't need us. It is we who are in need of the Church! May God help you to see this!BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-76525971706641487112017-07-03T10:53:06.607-05:002017-07-03T10:53:06.607-05:00'Course it's not your fault. God gave you ...'Course it's not your fault. God gave you the priesthood, the people to care for, the building and financial obligations. You're the victim here. You have a right to be angry. Repentance is irrelevant. Just keep telling yourself that. BTW, the Jesus Prayer is vain repetition!JGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04422108804336072856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-14508227951090076632017-07-03T06:50:14.261-05:002017-07-03T06:50:14.261-05:00Amen.Amen. Amen.Amen.Amen. Amen.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-20917706014427064612017-07-03T00:43:20.613-05:002017-07-03T00:43:20.613-05:00I agree with the author. And it follows too, that ...I agree with the author. And it follows too, that we need to avoid complaining and be thankful during our trials.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com