tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post5030922235558002306..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Mayan Orthodoxy comes to the USAByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-85377157025821136642019-08-19T13:43:49.196-05:002019-08-19T13:43:49.196-05:00Just as an example of an non-cynical answer, the r...Just as an example of an non-cynical answer, the reason could simply be that a GOA bishop was moved in his heart to provide canonical (not that *anyone* in NA is canonical by the letter of the law) basis. As you note, despite historical, canonical, and theological intent, ethnophyletism is the de facto ecclesiological ontology of this Imperial Church of the East and has been since the fall of the Empire. What's a little more here or there? The double speak however is of course a scandal.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-46281956703946978962019-08-19T10:27:33.206-05:002019-08-19T10:27:33.206-05:00Revealed preferences are that ekklesia is downstre...Revealed preferences are that ekklesia is downstream from culture which is downstream from ancestry, QED, "Mayan Orthodoxy." Not, apparently, that there's anything wrong with that. But why do the Greek hierarchs tell us that the Church is ecumenical and hence one bishop for one territory, even as they discover yet another ethnic nation that requires its distinct exarchate on American soil? The cynical answer is that it buttresses the Ecumenical Patriarch's interpretation of Canon 28.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-72269265119003555072019-08-17T22:29:23.549-05:002019-08-17T22:29:23.549-05:00Lighten up fellas. It doesn’t become you to impose...Lighten up fellas. It doesn’t become you to impose your fetishes into this blog post. <br /><br />Whether she has the appearance of a mosaic or a melting pot, our holy Church will like a loving mother surely lead her good children to the throne of God. And if in her human side she is not perfect, then lets correct ourselves first and show patience until God brings about the solution. <br /><br />For the missionary minded, know that holiness draws far more fruitful members into the Church than do language, politics or any other idol.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11459948335722904923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-88649425435956997592019-08-17T20:08:06.958-05:002019-08-17T20:08:06.958-05:00Michael,
The current climate/culture - which mean...Michael,<br /><br />The current climate/culture - which means our thinking and strongly felt emotional "reaction's" - is not immoral or amoral, it is too moral. As Chesterton explained 100 years ago, the Christian virtues of the past are now unmoored to the center (i.e. Church, Christ, the Cross) and are now running amuck causing as much if not more damage than good. Every virtue, such as Justice, is *related* in a monarchical hierarchy of the Christian worldview (which is more than a worldview - it is reality itself). There is of course (social and every other kind of) Justice, but Justice alone is an absolute horror without Sacrifice and suffering (for example), and all the other virtues in a proper relation. <br /><br />So something called "Mayan Orthodoxy" comes to America, and a discussion ensues. In walks VanOldenPhatt, who is simply not interested the how and what of it ecclesiologicaly speaking, or even really what it means for Justice in a Christian sense (see above) in North America. Rather he speaks in exulted terms (e.g. "advent") by which he means their very presence is somehow a thumb in the eye of Trump and the Deplorables who voted for him (I did not, but I will be the next time around fer sur).<br /><br />His is a small justice that is no bigger than the evening news (which is not "informing" him, but manipulating him). He is emotionally and morally booted around like a ball as a matter of course, and he wants the Church to bless what he really believes is an enlightenment and liberation but is nothing more than a clever way to get him to buy more stuff.<br /><br />He should shoot his TV. He can borrow my assault rifle to do so if he wishes... ;)Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-10823627085775007512019-08-17T19:45:14.107-05:002019-08-17T19:45:14.107-05:00Well I haven't read the book you mentioned, I ...Well I haven't read the book you mentioned, I would hope that Papanikolaou’s theory that modern Democratic political systems have some strong compatibility with the Gospel (I agree) would also mention the bad (secularism, anti religion that the system seems to create)Michael Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03910016378835393764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-39343189824418539342019-08-17T19:38:03.574-05:002019-08-17T19:38:03.574-05:00Hello Jake, there is the example of Christ coming ...Hello Jake, there is the example of Christ coming and preaching and eating with the unclean groups. Then there is the early church giving care to anyone and challenging the bread monopoly of the state. This isn't exactly liberation theology, but rather speaking truth to power and preaching to those who feel unvalued that the kingdom of God is in them. While the church respected authority it demanded some pretty radical changes. Would suggest book of on Social Justice by St Basil the great. Key difference is that in orthodoxy Christ is central and justice comes from a logical step of our transfiguration, (love can't bear it), versus what I think you are reacting to where social issues become the law....Michael Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03910016378835393764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-57693726899737522472019-08-17T19:16:27.479-05:002019-08-17T19:16:27.479-05:00That's right, I am a meany weeny Christian pac...That's right, I am a meany weeny Christian pacini. "Woke" folks have nothing good to say about me... ;)Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-59208981891351593872019-08-17T19:10:59.114-05:002019-08-17T19:10:59.114-05:00Well I already cited the straw man fallacy... like...Well I already cited the straw man fallacy... like a pit bull aren’t you? Obviously you don’t have a mongering heart...VanOldenPhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01397386244607513016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-66190734748907806542019-08-17T18:58:01.849-05:002019-08-17T18:58:01.849-05:00This is my favorite version of this thinking:
htt...This is my favorite version of this thinking:<br /><br />https://www.amazon.com/Mystical-as-Political-Aristotle-Papanikolaou/dp/0268038961<br /><br />Turns out the Gospel leads straight to....wait for it....Liberal Democracy and secular "rights"! All that Cross business just has to be a mistake...Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-67903073110181161832019-08-17T18:53:11.351-05:002019-08-17T18:53:11.351-05:00There is Orthodox Ecology, so sure Orthodox Libera...There is Orthodox Ecology, so sure Orthodox Liberation Theology...why not? All that in the Gospel's and the rest of the NT about not wetting your finger and sticking it up in the air just has to be wrong ;)Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-21996490656959751362019-08-17T17:56:03.947-05:002019-08-17T17:56:03.947-05:00Exactly. Typical contemporary Orthodox lay respons...Exactly. Typical contemporary Orthodox lay responses to issues of ministry to oppressed communities seems to leave outnthenrolenof Church as liberator and civilizer. Reading about the history of Cluny monastery in the chaos of X-XI c. Burgundy one can see how the very notion of civility often comes from no place other than the Church. <br />To pretend that the adventnof full-blown Guatemalan Mayan Orthodox communities in the midst of a very sick American scene does not portend opportunities for repentance - especially from ideologies of hatred - shows real spiritual blindness. VanOldenPhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01397386244607513016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-69051270879330903592019-08-17T17:43:02.356-05:002019-08-17T17:43:02.356-05:00He is not talking about any of that. He turned on...He is not talking about any of that. He turned on his TV one day and now understands identity politics as the beginning and end of all morality and Christian things. He misses the irony of his use of "narrow" ;)Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-69833045690125506302019-08-17T17:07:59.555-05:002019-08-17T17:07:59.555-05:00There is really no theological basis for carving o...There is really no theological basis for carving out a unique ethno-national jurisdiction in the middle of the US, which already has three mature Orthodox jurisdictions operating at the margin of canonicity. It's bizarre that, after decades of insular Hellenism, the EP suddenly decides it's time to hand out ethnic-based jurisdictions. Do the African-Americans get one? How about the Anglos?<br /><br />+Bartholomew has unleashed centrifugal forces in the Communion.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-85181391698919998102019-08-17T16:06:49.461-05:002019-08-17T16:06:49.461-05:00Fr Andre, Mexico and Alaska show the power of defe...Fr Andre, Mexico and Alaska show the power of defending the oppressed as a powerful ministry for Jesus Christ. Also exposes the sorry state of Hispanic orthodoxy that a priest had to come from Gautamela for this. You would think that they would use this as an opportunity to establish a local priest.Michael Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03910016378835393764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-51190609965958788182019-08-17T15:42:00.307-05:002019-08-17T15:42:00.307-05:00I see I touched a nerve. Your straw men do not wit...I see I touched a nerve. Your straw men do not withstand scrutiny and your intolerance of the mere mention of a nasty political and social reality just such people as Mayan immigrants face tells me utterly narrow is your own definition of Church. VanOldenPhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01397386244607513016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-63497388457248303662019-08-17T14:00:24.446-05:002019-08-17T14:00:24.446-05:00Van..an interesting mix of progressive ideology)po...Van..an interesting mix of progressive ideology)political correctness and the Church. Does not work. <br /><br />It is quite possible to make similar statements independent of any regime. Exactly why Solzhenitsyn warned us about ideology. <br /><br />If it is pleasing to God that they are here is what is important. <br /><br />If you expect the Orthodox Church to man the barricades, you will be disappointed. The Church does not have a revolutionary ethos. We are far more radical than that not being of the world.<br /><br />Revolutionaries always miss that reality and so always end up in bloodshed and destruction. Nihilism at it's finest.<br /><br />Michael Baumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025213649848660526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-37621908711738351862019-08-17T13:39:07.305-05:002019-08-17T13:39:07.305-05:00Sooo...."woke" (your term -"awaken...Sooo...."woke" (your term -"awakens") secular political morality is a justification and support for de facto ethnophyletistic ecclesiology in the Church?!?<br /><br />Your working (i.e. thinking) exactly backwards...Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-43781571741362446462019-08-17T12:28:16.393-05:002019-08-17T12:28:16.393-05:00Excuse me, I thought Maya were an indigenous peopl...Excuse me, I thought Maya were an indigenous people and not Hispanic. They have their own language (though I do not know if Divine Services are being served in it) and autochthonous culture and are not mestizo to a large extent. <br />I laud the advent in Oakland and elsewhere of Mayan Orthodox communities and hope the churches they use serve as adequate refuge for them in this time of official persecution of just such immigrants by the regime in Washington that scapegoats refugee victims of violence in Central America. I hope their presence here among us awakens Orthodox people in this country to the gravity of our situation as a nation and of vulnerable people everywhere. VanOldenPhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01397386244607513016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-59967910453018960482019-08-16T06:49:34.480-05:002019-08-16T06:49:34.480-05:00And I agree with you, Orthodox mom. It's ironi...And I agree with you, Orthodox mom. It's ironic that Catholic Guatemalans are becoming Orthodox, even as the EP seems to be closer to union with the Pope. I have heard the missionary priest, Fr. Chakos, speak about the mission. Too bad it IS under the EP.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-86191424936187080012019-08-15T20:11:57.601-05:002019-08-15T20:11:57.601-05:00For the record, I simply like the idea of a group ...For the record, I simply like the idea of a group of people being Orthodox missionaries to the hispanic community here, but I don't support the EP. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-59473838488414150032019-08-15T08:50:32.186-05:002019-08-15T08:50:32.186-05:00What an awful, glorious mess Orthodoxy in the Amer...What an awful, glorious mess Orthodoxy in the Americas is! Dmitri Karamazovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03525305770517249043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-84021801883083902922019-08-15T08:24:52.372-05:002019-08-15T08:24:52.372-05:00Why do they require a Mayan Orthodox jurisdiction ...Why do they require a Mayan Orthodox jurisdiction in the US? And why isn't it "Guatemalan Orthodoxy?"<br /><br />Can I start "Anglo Orthodoxy" and find a Greek bishop to validate it?<br /><br />I'm told (over and over) that the Church is an ecumenical model, not an ethno-nationalist one, but we seem to be getting more ethnic nation-state Churches, not less. And in an interesting twist on ecumenicism, these jurisdictions seem to be multiplying under Constantinople, even as its actual See shrinks.<br /><br />I'm being told one thing, and I'm watching the hierarchs act another.<br /><br />And now I'm told well, you see, it's that the Indigenous and African-American appreciate that whole Orthodox community thing more (combined with an implicit accusation of Oppression). Okay, well let's right that wrong: do I need to start an Anglo community under the generic "American" umbrella like the Mayan/Guatemalans have done?<br /><br />This is why I say we have no framework for dealing with this.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-66267766178052318612019-08-14T21:28:37.783-05:002019-08-14T21:28:37.783-05:00My mom is Mexican from East L.A., but we are very ...My mom is Mexican from East L.A., but we are very American. Mexicans have been in Los Angeles since the city was founded. With the rhetoric going on today, people seem to forget that there are places in America where hispanic people have always been and it makes sense for them to be there. I would feel comfortable in any loving, Orthodox Christian community. It seems like the Mayan Orthodox are missionaries that take action and if they want to spread the gospel to hispanic people in the U.S., I think its wonderful. For the record, I am conservative and not a liberal, however, the rhetoric against immigration is so strong right now some people seem to be generalizing their frustrations against all hispanic people. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-66555140232002944302019-08-14T19:42:27.630-05:002019-08-14T19:42:27.630-05:00Your dismissiveness does not become you. It is ea...Your dismissiveness does not become you. It is easy to imagine 500 of 3000 villagers showing up. Indeed through most of (both eastern and western) Christendom and its normative village life, this was the norm. Indeed, the number seems too low...why were not 1000 or 2000 showing up? Honest question.<br /><br />Also, if they are "puzzled" by Orthodoxy as it actually is for many (most really: Greece, Romania, Ukraine, Russia - all very secularized) of its adherents, just what sort of " worldwide Orthodox community " do they think they are joining? What will happen to their "simple" faith when (not if) a certain prosperity and secular world view eventually becomes part of their daily life?Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-21508804052523506782019-08-14T19:05:52.642-05:002019-08-14T19:05:52.642-05:00These comments all seem to be based on the attitud...These comments all seem to be based on the attitudes and social issues facing educated comfortable middle class North American Orthodox who can leisurely ruminate over the jurisdictional mess facing the Orthodox diaspora in the western hemisphere. Things are different among the Mayans. <br /><br />Regarding jurisdictions: Fr Giron of blessed memory had asked several Orthodox jurisdictions to accept the Mayans into the church. It was the Greek archdiocese that responded and accepted them. The Mayans want to be part of the worldwide Orthodox community; they have no pressing vanity to become a separate jurisdiction.<br /><br />The only reason an "Iberian" Spanish or "Ladino" person would be uncomfortable in a Mayan Orthodox church is guilt over the decades of organized genocide perpetrated against the Mayans. They were abandoned by Guatemalan society, government, and their former churches to a life of abject poverty, disease, and malnutrition. Their simple but intense love for Fr Giron, who fought in every way he could to lift them up, has been transferred to a very simple but very intense love for their new found Orthodox faith. Imagine if you can, a tiny remote mountain Mayan village of 3,000 people packing Sunday Liturgy with over 500 worshipers. They are a very warm and appreciative people, scratching out a meager existence from subsistence farming. They would probably be puzzled and confused to hear fellow Orthodox engage in such bantering as published in these comments. My observations are based on having spent several weeks working in a Mayan village clinic with the OCMC.<br />old McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15802541704386279102noreply@blogger.com