tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post5223205624291988451..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Alexandria further reflects on Russian incursion Byzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-6650533965243764032022-01-14T19:23:19.375-06:002022-01-14T19:23:19.375-06:00Antioch has a long history of questioning the spir...Antioch has a long history of questioning the spiritual authority of the Roman Empire in general, and Constantinople in particular. With the rise of St. Constantine's new city, the position of Antioch had dropped, not only in the diptychs, but also in understood political significance.<br /><br />The Monophysite heresy in Syria probably existed for political reasons mostly and as a stand against the Roman Empire and Constantinople's position. Yet it was the theological obstinacy of the Monophysites that paved the way for the rapid takeover of Islam later on. Now all four of the ancient Patriarchates suffer today under Muslim rule.<br /><br />Joseph Lipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361879846966270399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-29655436837422508472022-01-14T06:19:15.173-06:002022-01-14T06:19:15.173-06:00What you call "federation" ecclesiology ...What you call "federation" ecclesiology isn't anything new-- it's the normal ecclesiology of all the churches apart from Constantinople and Rome, historically. A classical expression of it can be found in the writings of the 11th century Patriarch of Antioch Peter III, who during the schism insisted on the absolute equality of patriarchal sees and, in another dispute with Michael Cerularius, which he won, very pointedly insisted that "the Apostolic See of Antioch is not under that of Constantinople."Samn!https://www.blogger.com/profile/14142811721903345946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-80587832226099033132022-01-13T21:13:25.684-06:002022-01-13T21:13:25.684-06:00"... The ecclesial canons no more align with ..."... The ecclesial canons no more align with social and geopolitical reality than the Old Calendar does with the celestial bodies. The hierarchy has known about this problem for several centuries but sees the Americas as just a giant cash cow and not real countries with real flocks.<br /><br />I used to wonder earnestly about who was complying with ecclesiological rules and who wasn't but now I really don't care. The bishops and their canons will be taken seriously when they act seriously."<br /><br />Amen Brother! Preach it! Seriously, this is right (I'm bookmarking it ;) ), but lets not put it all on the bishops, or even most of it, because fact is most of their flock has not interesting in anything other than the status quo. Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-24250334571428589142022-01-13T21:10:33.021-06:002022-01-13T21:10:33.021-06:00YYes, I'm trying to be jocular about a conver ...YYes, I'm trying to be jocular about a conver in Lubbock affecting Byzantine and Slavic culture by calling themselves "Dionysius" and the like. I know, who am I to question *authentic* Orthodox piety ;) Unfortunately (though I really think it is for the better) you will always be for me Norman "Dionysius " Reddington, the Ace of Dogma, the Red Barron of Heresy, the Chuck Yeager of Ecclesiology - to me...because of my own failings...forgive me a sinner... :)<br /><br />Seriously though, did not Elpidophoros say more than that, and somewhat differently? I don't have to agree with his strong emphasis on primacy to know its close to the mark as it *was actually practiced* when the Roman Empire was around, has always been thought of among the Greeks, and was even among the Slavs until the much more recent "federation" Ecclesiology (which in its current form, is only about 100 years old). I know American/protestant converts (I am one by the way) are deathly afraid of anything that hints of what they think is "Popish" ecclesiology, but the fact (and it is a historical/ecclesiological *fact*) that in both spirit and letter the Imperial cannons grant Old Rome and New Rome (but not Third Rome) real primacy with practical privelages/duties, like the right of appeal. Russia and "federationists" in western Texas might not like this, but to call it a "heresy" is theological and historical nonsense - it existed, was normative for most of this Imperial Church's history, and while it is impotent and irrelevant now, its still on the (canonical) law books. Sure, its inconvenient Russia's and your novel way of thinking, but its not "heresy".<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, Met. Elpidophoros is slicker than a west Texas oil man, and I don't trust him any farther than I can through him. Still, he knows what he is talking about even behind the spin, certainly more than "the barnstormer of Principle" from Lubbock does ;)<br /><br />Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-59394489574673624832022-01-13T20:34:43.181-06:002022-01-13T20:34:43.181-06:00But aren't we title focused,,,the externalitie...But aren't we title focused,,,the externalities give all of us orgasms yet it is all in place of the internalities of the faith. The faith is rich and mystical yet we blasphame it by focusing on titles, who was consecrated on the first Tuesday of fifth month by three men who were consecrated one in the morning, one in the afternoon and one at night. Do you get the point, we need to get back to Bible basics and understand that orthodox is not a noun but is an adjective that modifies the noun Christian....all of this infighting is an embarrassment and we become the joke of the Christian world. As we fight and debate the other demonations are stealing our flock and we do not seem to care,,,,it is tragic, simply tragic,,,I weepr j klanckohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18000371679565046691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-41424716418078547222022-01-13T16:18:45.302-06:002022-01-13T16:18:45.302-06:00Although canons and councils have identified vario...Although canons and councils have identified various heresies, heresy itself is simply the dogmatic assertion of a proposition contrary to the Truth. St. John Damascene non-exhaustively lists 103, including paganism, Judaism, Islam, and at 103 something very like Protestantism. The present patriarch of Constantinople long kept on his official webpage a paper by Abp. Elpidophoros asserting that every council of bishops necessarily has a primus who represents God the Father; needless to say, the primus primorum is the Patriarch of Constantinople. The paper goes on to assert that anyone who denies this is an heretic (Elpidophoros's word, not mine). This theological opinion has been used to justify more than just the intrusions in Ukraine. It also is related to Pat. Bartholomew's claim that the Church 'cannot exist' without the see of Constantinople, a statement that is prima facie absurd and historically false. Because these teachings are false, and because they are being asserted dogmatically by the hierarchy, they seem to me to meet the definition of heresy. Pat. Bartholomew's language about the Greek 'race' and its apparently special ontological status is also heretical (ethnophyletist) unless meant purely as rather stupid hyperpatriotic rhetoric with no substantive meaning; it must be admitted, however, that Moscow and probably all old-country Orthodox jurisdictions are also ethnophyletist.<br /><br />All the above references are from memory, but I believe them to be accurate. If I am wrong, I would be glad to see evidence of it.<br /><br />I am not a fighter pilot. I assume that question is some sort of in-joke?<br /><br />Dionysius Redington<br />Lubbock TXNorman Hugh Redingtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05532518787129783469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-52476467372799101442022-01-13T15:08:31.476-06:002022-01-13T15:08:31.476-06:00Tit for tat. If the Greek Patriarch is going to &q...Tit for tat. If the Greek Patriarch is going to "fix" a situation in Russia/Ukraine, then the Russian Patriarch is going to make better job offers to African priests. <br /><br />In other slights, there are well-established Antiochian Orthodox dioceses in Central and South America, but the Greek Patriarch starts "Mayan Orthodoxy."<br /><br />I think there's also some issues with Jerusalemite parishes in the US. I guess Levantines and Palestinians don't get along? They did in my old parish but maybe that's not the case with more recent arrivals. No idea.<br /><br />The OCA has been treated pretty shabbily. What is ROCOR doing here?<br /><br />The battle for the world is on. The ecclesial canons no more align with social and geopolitical reality than the Old Calendar does with the celestial bodies. The hierarchy has known about this problem for several centuries but sees the Americas as just a giant cash cow and not real countries with real flocks.<br /><br />I used to wonder earnestly about who was complying with ecclesiological rules and who wasn't but now I really don't care. The bishops and their canons will be taken seriously when they act seriously.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-66684165703983046452022-01-13T13:51:53.804-06:002022-01-13T13:51:53.804-06:00"Might makes right" is the usual justifi..."Might makes right" is the usual justification of the world, and wasn't this the main rationalization behind Charlemagne's "Holy Roman Empire" and the eventual schism of 1054? <br /><br />The false "second" Rome of Charlemagne still exists, now in the person of Pope Francis. So why create another false Rome?<br /><br />God's power is manifest in human weakness. This is the way of the Cross. Christ's disciples were scandalized by the Cross and fled. Perhaps today is no different.<br /><br />Joseph Lipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361879846966270399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-66526677012000425512022-01-13T13:46:29.192-06:002022-01-13T13:46:29.192-06:00The sheer hypocrisy of Moscow really is stunning. ...The sheer hypocrisy of Moscow really is stunning. Constantinople is exaggerating the role of the first among equals - although perhaps not in receiving petitions from the ridiculously prolonged conflicts in Ukraine - but at least they are honest about it! Moscow proclaims its orthodoxy and orthopraxy and adherence to all that is right and good and canonical with its lips...and then crosses the seas and continents to bind others with these laws that it cannot bother to keep itself. "Scribes and pharisees, hypocrites!" God help us all...Jon Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17906335382429497204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-70157861095293917222022-01-13T13:34:36.345-06:002022-01-13T13:34:36.345-06:00You don't NEED a patriarch to have an orthodox...You don't NEED a patriarch to have an orthodox church. Patriarch, Metropolitan, Archbishop, all are just honorary titles for a bishop. BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-8001112135116610922022-01-13T13:05:23.889-06:002022-01-13T13:05:23.889-06:00Are we living in 2022 or 1022,,,, time to realize ...Are we living in 2022 or 1022,,,, time to realize that many of the ancient canons are ancient,,,and that the divine right of patriarchs is no longer relevant for it breeds mediocracy,,,if in these times Russia can do it better, then so be it,,if the ancients can't compete so be it. We have a responsibility as Christians to be Christian and follow the teachings of Jesus, which are to evangelize and save souls,,,not to perpetuate an archaic and many times corrupt past,,,,we need to learn to play nicely in the sand box and work with each other's as peers. No has a divine right and must earn the right to lead,,,,and I personally see that our present leader is Moscow yet I pray that there is an American leader, a widower,with a mba, who is American born, waiting in the wings to bring a one United American church into being and thereby create the newest, strongest,and most successful patriarchate . God willing.r j klanckohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18000371679565046691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-8045973052856321812022-01-13T12:09:01.645-06:002022-01-13T12:09:01.645-06:00Norman "Dionysius" Redington,
What here...Norman "Dionysius" Redington,<br /><br />What heresy do you refer to? Cite the relevant canons which condemn this heresy that Alexandrian has fallen in to please. You see, I don't think you even know what "heresy" means, but we will see ;)<br /><br />Also, are you a fighter pilot?!?Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-54242054491957195332022-01-13T11:40:08.686-06:002022-01-13T11:40:08.686-06:00This is all so sad. Imagine if Moscow and Alexandr...This is all so sad. Imagine if Moscow and Alexandria met, seriously, in person, with the intent to work this out for the benefit of the Church, and came up with a solution of some kind. What an uplift that would be for the whole Church! (Constantinople would say, You can't do that, only I can do that; but too bad.) Let's pray fervently for a resolution that transcends grudges and errors.Palomnikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02543658872512777512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-32076371104188831202022-01-13T11:17:29.475-06:002022-01-13T11:17:29.475-06:00On the one hand, it is certainly true that Russia ...On the one hand, it is certainly true that Russia has no business making African clergy swear oaths of loyalty for life to Moscow, as they are; it would be better to create some sort of temporary structures meant to last only for the duration of Alexandria's fall into heresy. On the other hand, Alexandria *is* promoting a heresy, which the Russian church has rightly (though perhaps for the wrong reasons) condemned. There is also a certain absurdity in a mostly Greek-run church condemning Russians for neo-imperialism (and if the Greeks are 'a tribe of South Africa', as the Patriarchate now claims, so are the Russians).<br /><br />Dionysius Redington<br />Lubbock TX <br />Norman Hugh Redingtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05532518787129783469noreply@blogger.com