tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post5705263868099215962..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Parachute not likely to be deployed in effort to save assemblyByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-28497194106497539802022-07-18T12:42:33.396-05:002022-07-18T12:42:33.396-05:00Very good Νικολαος, your knowledge of the canons, ...Very good Νικολαος, your knowledge of the canons, as they are actually written and applied for the last 1300 years (since the fall of the Roman Empire in which and for which they were actually written), is better than 99% of the average online Orthodox commentator.<br /><br />I would note however that formality, procedural uniformity, and laws (i.e. the Holy Canons) are rest on a common *spirit* - a fundamental spiritual *unity*. When the underlying spirit of a cult-ure, in this case the Orthodox Church, becomes fractured as we have around ethno-national spirit and interests, then the canonical formality loses it's *charisma* and unifying potential. <br /><br />The EP did translate and comment on some of the relevant documents and normative (at least for the last 1300 years) reasoning/interpretation, but that effort was significantly drowned out by the MP's superior messaging machine. In addition, given the deep deep ingrained affinity for individualism, "democracy", and fear of centralization & hierarchy in the west equally among Christian's and non-Christians, the MP's "federation" ecclesiology makes much more intuitive sense. Thus for the average western Orthdox Christian, it appeals to what they (mostly unconsciously) believe about Unam Sanctam, church history, and "popeism". <br /><br />They are wrong of course, but you will never convince them of it - their inner John Locke is clinged to with all the strength and bitterness of a man who has fallen overboard in the middle of the ocean. The MP sort of stumbled into this historical accident but they certainly know how to leverage it.<br /><br />Honestly, I can't think of a way through this, either for the greeks/EP or anyone else. Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-81789288151140886462022-07-17T13:15:41.113-05:002022-07-17T13:15:41.113-05:00As a Greek Orthodox Christian, I would like to chi...As a Greek Orthodox Christian, I would like to chime in this discussion to advocate for both sides of this debate. Firstly, with respect to the decision to accept the suspended clergyman and then to arbitrarily promote him to the episcopal dignity makes very little if any sense at all from the perspective of canon law. Even if I advocated for the sake of bishop elect, Fr. Alexander's innocence, I would have to admit that he made three tragic mistakes which automatically disqualifies him for the priestly order. These are as follows:<br /><br />1) He ignored the call to appear before the ecclesiastical court of the Holy Synod of ROCOR, which is an act of sedition against and a disregard of ecclesiastical canon law. For even if the court was prejudiced towards him, it does give him the right to ignore the ancient customs of the Church, not to appear and confess and state the truth. If one is wrongfully condemned, there is ecclesiastical recourse. The tribunal, in turn, could only summon him three times. If he does not appear, to carry judgement for sedition against his Church. He cannot be tried for the original allegations since he did not show up to defend himself. If the Holy Synod of ROCOR condemned for anything else but sedition because he has not stood to be judged. Besides, sedition is a far more serious ecclesiastical crime, and his suspension was fully warranted.<br /><br />2) Instead of maintaining to an ecclesiastical defense, he resorted to fight his wrongful conviction in secular courts, just as the letter above mentioned. This is contrary to the ecclesiastical ethos and Holy Canon Law and is also punishable with suspension.<br /><br />3) His appeal to the Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, His Eminence Elpidoforos, should have been automatically rejected because of reasons 1 and 2. Had he not committed these two preceding errors, he would have been in full right to appeal directly to the Ecumenical Patriarch to review and adjudicate his defense and convene the Patriarchal Council to either exonerate or reject it.<br /><br />Now, there are those who believe that the right of appeal is limited to the Synod which condemned the suspended clergyman, but this is simply not true. Consequently, they are led to the same incorrect conclusions about what has occurred in Ukraine.<br /><br />It is a very sad statement that the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America has failed to translate very important historical and canonical documents which defend the decision of their very own Ecumenical Patriarch and has such a poor job of communicating the historical facts and reasons behind why the Ecumenical Patriarchate had full justification and the imperative to intervene to lift the extreme and unjust measure of excommunication against millions of Ukrainian Orthodox clergy and laity. <br />The schisms in the Ukraine are a highly complicated matter which involves at least 5 centuries of political and canonical history and canonical precedent, that confounds even the experts. The Ecumenical Patriarch did not encroach in any other canonical jurisdiction than its own. Why this is so exceeds the purpose of this comment, but it is very so. <br />Νικολαοςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10188017603791832081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-32551362258255405422022-07-17T12:51:36.518-05:002022-07-17T12:51:36.518-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Νικολαοςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10188017603791832081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-15945516332080176132022-07-14T18:57:43.937-05:002022-07-14T18:57:43.937-05:00Here's a thought, don't interfere in the a...Here's a thought, don't interfere in the affairs of an autocephalous church by recognizing and serving with schismatics. BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-40314326926205641152022-07-14T14:59:14.403-05:002022-07-14T14:59:14.403-05:00The point is well-taken regarding schism by way of...The point is well-taken regarding schism by way of taking disaffected people. It's not an exactly comparable situation, though. The EP's establishment of a new Ukrainian Church by fiat and with the involvement of deposed clergymen was schismatic. Because the canonical principles taint not only those who concelebrate with schismatics but those who concelebrate with those who concelebrate with schismatics, it's perhaps understandable that many clergy in the Alexandrian Patriarchate (which supported the EP in this matter) would not want to have their ministry tarnished by that. It's all complicated, of course, but the MP's puzzling behavior since the current Russian-Ukrainian conflict began.B Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129821596831863015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-66654339669231971722022-07-14T01:39:07.227-05:002022-07-14T01:39:07.227-05:00And that Exarchate is a train wreckAnd that Exarchate is a train wreckjckstraw72https://www.blogger.com/profile/04268805027248694534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-15616231028768513692022-07-13T20:01:40.752-05:002022-07-13T20:01:40.752-05:00This is the same bishop who believes EPB is first ...This is the same bishop who believes EPB is first without* equal. Greek supremacy is nonnegotiable, you dont get to question the pope of the East. I fully expect this appeal to reason will be arrogantly ignored if not mocked. Between the Ukrainian schism, the promotion of homosexual parenting, and this, at least its increasingly clear for all to see the true colors of our progressive bishops. <br /><br />Elder Ephraim said that the bishops who survive world war three will finally get their act together and resolve these issues. Its the only reason his monasteries haven't left the GOA for a jurisdiction that isn't so wayward. I would rather avoid living to see world war three, but since we're clearly headed for it, at least there might be something good that comes out of it. <br /><br />As usual I am grateful that as Orthodox Christians we dont have to concern ourselves with the foolishness of bishops in order to work out our salvation. Sojournerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09849986892411111836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-30606720672668234742022-07-13T18:59:54.296-05:002022-07-13T18:59:54.296-05:00"Your Eminence would not appreciate one of ou... "Your Eminence would not appreciate one of our jurisdictions creating a Greek or Cypriot vicariate in order to take advantage of discord among members of your own community."<br /><br />You mean like the Russian Orthodox diocese in Africa?Rome1453https://www.blogger.com/profile/04007946285367709356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-8866965031016501142022-07-13T17:24:52.095-05:002022-07-13T17:24:52.095-05:00Drawing the line in the sand with Belya is admirab...Drawing the line in the sand with Belya is admirable on one level, given that the current course has to be arrested somewhere, sometime, and in some way. It's also arbitrary because whey here/now?<br /><br />Its arbitrariness lies in the central problem is that the signatories of this letter have no more idea, let alone a practical plan, on how to *be* something other than the very confederation that they admit they are.<br /><br />They keep using the word "canonical" as if the exiting canons contain within them the ontology of Unam Sanctam of Orthodoxy for the Church post_Roman Empire, but they don't - how could they as they reflect the Church in the Empire?<br /><br />They speak of "the spirit of conciliatory" as if they have any clue as to what that actually looks like in the de facto confederation, federation, and jurisdictional ecclesial reality, and they themselves each are as much a part of that reality and it's life of ever-more-fragmentation.<br /><br />It would one thing if GOA/Elpidophoros were a "bad apple" among otherwise sound fruit, but their all just as broken and guilty - they are all, almost equally, as much a part of the problem as any *real* solution. <br /><br />Before you can pick up Humpty and put him back together, you have to remember what he looks like, and none of these guys any more than Elpidophoros has a clue, and even if they did they don't have it them - they don't have the human qualities (the leadership) nor the *charisma* Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.com