tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post7710189978244817993..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: EP responds to letter from Albanian ChurchByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-3195063933120174062019-03-21T10:22:00.854-05:002019-03-21T10:22:00.854-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-23887456986619424872019-03-21T10:18:35.334-05:002019-03-21T10:18:35.334-05:00I don't know quite how to tell you this , Davi...I don't know quite how to tell you this , David, but the UOC-MP didn't exist in Tsarist times. The Patriarchate was abolished by Tsar Peter. Not that I think this was a good thing, on the contrary, it was during the reign of the Tsar Martyr Nicholas II, that talk of restoring the Patriarchate began. In fact, the Tsar proposed himself as a candidate, which would have entailed him leaving his family to take monastic vows. The Synod received his proposal in stunned silence, and the Tsar never raised the matter again.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-83990685785085440642019-03-20T08:59:07.309-05:002019-03-20T08:59:07.309-05:00I had an exchange with Dcn Nicholas where I shared...I had an exchange with Dcn Nicholas where I shared some pictures of Archbishop Daniel, of the UOC of USA, celebrating the UPA at a monument to said group. Dcn Nicholas replied that it was "Russian propaganda." The problem is, the pictures came straight from the official UOC of USA website. That in a nutshell sums up the stubborn, fanatical denial from pro-OCU apologists about the prominent fascist element in their chosen camp. The Jester of Qihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015274629532918121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-69499519300615467272019-03-19T23:31:22.777-05:002019-03-19T23:31:22.777-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-84865604515432052592019-03-19T23:28:34.848-05:002019-03-19T23:28:34.848-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-42022054674010863212019-03-19T22:33:40.167-05:002019-03-19T22:33:40.167-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-46490281268532509942019-03-19T18:23:58.243-05:002019-03-19T18:23:58.243-05:00" There are articles and video programs assur..." There are articles and video programs assuring us that ‘they’ are evil and incapable of redemption, and therefore must be shut out of the Orthodox Eucharistic assembly.<br /><br />But has anyone taken the time to investigate whether or not these allegations are true, or false? The only way to learn the truth is to meet the people of these communities, as they really are, and allow them to share their histories with us without mediation or censorship, a privilege every people reserves for itself. If Orthodox Christians refuse to assemble with and grant a hearing to fellow Orthodox from whom they have been estranged for decades – through no fault of their own – then they stand accused of the very Lenten rites of self-examination and forgiveness of the other they claim to cherish above all."<br /><br />As a supporter of women's ordination, I don't normally recommend anything by Deacon Nicholas, but what he is pointing to her is right. Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-57132555303068436952019-03-19T18:11:37.837-05:002019-03-19T18:11:37.837-05:00When a church is Autonomous, the Patriarch need no...When a church is Autonomous, the Patriarch need not be commemorated. In the Greek Archdiocese, normally only the Archbishop and ruling Metropolitan are commemorated. I've been in Serbian churches where only the diocesan bishop is commemorated, not the Patriarch. Finally, in the OCA'S own Romanian diocese, Archbishop Nathaniel is commemorated. And these three above churches aren't even Autonomous.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-35920915106397147352019-03-19T16:08:53.896-05:002019-03-19T16:08:53.896-05:00Metropolitan Jonah and I did not agree often but h...Metropolitan Jonah and I did not agree often but he was right when he said, "if we wanted a Pope we’d be under the<br />real one."rhartschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02005412818602247908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-15784324984777354032019-03-19T15:55:12.757-05:002019-03-19T15:55:12.757-05:001)The Phanar is not an Apostolic Church. 2)Even if...1)The Phanar is not an Apostolic Church. 2)Even if these claims aren't new or are a millennia old they are still fraudulent since they were not imparted to us by Christ and His apostles and therefore can never be part of our Faith. rhartschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02005412818602247908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-29606056563142809322019-03-19T09:16:42.048-05:002019-03-19T09:16:42.048-05:00Yes, the MP's incendiary polemics are unhelpfu...Yes, the MP's incendiary polemics are unhelpful to say the least, but the EP's assertion of what is effectively universal jurisdiction can be blamed on no one but the EP itself. Having said that... is it so crazy to question the continued relevance of an institution that was created based on a long-defunct geopolitical order? The 28th canon of Chalcedon explicitly bases Constantinople's pre-eminence on the presence of the imperial government there. Both that empire, and the Ottoman empire that succeeded it, are long gone. That doesn't mean that the EP should be suddenly ignored or abolished, but it does raise legitimate questions about how primacy should be determined now. Granted, Moscow's polemical attacks in this direction poison the discussion and are self-serving, and God forbid that Moscow ever becomes "first without equals", but the question itself is not illegitimate. The Jester of Qihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015274629532918121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-69823281573933740352019-03-19T09:09:34.064-05:002019-03-19T09:09:34.064-05:00There are more churches in the world than the EP a...There are more churches in the world than the EP and MP. I agree that the MP has ratcheted up the propaganda machine to the point where honest dialogue is difficult, but the same cannot be said regarding Antioch, Albania, and others who have all raised respectful concerns with the EP and been met with either silence or the arrogance on display in the above letter. The Jester of Qihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015274629532918121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-58813003245039077982019-03-19T05:54:48.540-05:002019-03-19T05:54:48.540-05:00David, I don't think all the people of the OCU...David, I don't think all the people of the OCU are "evil" anymore than the two of us are evil; we are sinner, but not "evil" as in good people vs bad people. As Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn said, the line separating good & evil runs through the center of every person's heart. In fact, I regularly pray of all the people involved in this mess, not just the UOC.<br /><br />However, if Epiphany valued Christ over nationalism he would not be keeping any of the temples that "these pious peoples" have violently seized, but the reality is the OCU is keeping them! Are there any documented efforts to rectify these actions or sanction the thugs who are taking them? No! The OCU is even leveraging the state to seize the UCO's monasteries & anything else they can get their hands on. This reality speaks for itself.<br /><br />It is worth pointing out that, to the best of my knowledge, the UOC never even attempted similar things on the so-called KP or UAOC in the last 30 years. The UOC co-existed peacefully with these two schismatic groups lamenting the schism but respecting their freedom in hopes of reconcilliation.<br /><br />We are known by our fruits, and this situation says it all.<br /><br />If the entire country wanted autocephaly this would be a very different story, but the reality is that a minority group composed largely of violent nationalist (certainly the leaders & many of the followers) are demanding it, valuing it over unity, and the way it is unfolding is revealing the EP's unOrthodox ecclesiology, which is what I find most troubling.<br /><br />We can spout off on blogs all day long, but the Church will render a decision on all this soon enough. We should wait patiently & pray in the meantime.Timmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06833797224685670708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-37764434500115515482019-03-19T00:55:46.448-05:002019-03-19T00:55:46.448-05:00I will bow out of this conversation with this link...I will bow out of this conversation with this link:<br /><br />https://theorthodoxworld.com/exclusive-the-sunday-of-orthodoxy-reconciliation-and-ukraine/<br /><br />This crisis has exposed some deep bitterness and animosity that has been lingering for decades. Those who disliked HAH Bartholomew before this mess are only "reinforced" in their disdain. Those who had it in for the MP before this are only "reinforced" in that.<br /><br />Orthodoxy isn't a street gang. There are no "sides" here. As I said, this has all the characteristics of the worst you would see in Divorce Court. When you are so vested in your "side" you lose sight of the human and the Gospel. I would receive Communion from Metropolitan Epiphany AND Metropolitan Onufry (although the latter would likely not commune me). All Orthodox in Ukraine need our prayers and love (OCU and UOC-MP). There are hurts there that those of us who are not Ukrainian will never understand (both ways, no matter what "side" you're on). Reconciliation takes time. HAH did this to break the empasse, to push a way forward for BOTH "sides." Maybe he is wrong, but I think one can question the judgement of a person without questioning their motives. I don't think Patriarch Kyrill is a bad man either, despite the hurtful actions the MP has taken towards the EP. They feel under seige and caught in a geopolitical web they are trying to navigate.<br /> Let's not have hardness of hearts. The good Deacon's article I linked to speaks in that spirit. I think it's a good meditation going forward in Great Lent. I pray that this all ends soon, with reconciliation...David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-56974613239583119882019-03-18T22:59:03.743-05:002019-03-18T22:59:03.743-05:00Timmy, you are painting ALL of the people in the O...Timmy, you are painting ALL of the people in the OCU with a broad brush. There is a history here that many people are overlooking. The MP is distrusted, virulently so in much of Ukraine. The reason for that has to a lot to do with Soviet history (and before). The whole reason that the UOC-MP has the special privileges that it has (which to my knowledge no other Autonomous Church has) was to appeal to the moderate autocephalists and defang the push for independence...the clamor for an independent Ukrainian Church was very very loud in the aftermath of the Soviet collapse. I have heard reports that the UOC-MP even allows some of its clerics to NOT commemorate Patriarch Kyrill (or do so quietly) in some parts of Ukraine (due to this hostility). Why would such a allowance be made, if all was well? <br /><br />The reason the Ukrainians want nothing to do with the MP are the same reasons why Greece broke away from the EP in the aftermath of their revolution. They want NO ties whatsoever to the Russian State (or in the Greek case, the Ottoman). The EP had to let Greece go, even though it didn't want to. The MP must do the same with Ukraine.<br /><br />As for the Ottoman period, yes the Sultans influenced the Church in Constantinople, often times to the detriment of the faithful (this is where the hostility to the EP in the Balkans and Arab Churches come from). HOWEVER, some Churches didn't mind when that "Symphonia" benefitted them. For example, when the Sultan gave the Bulgarians their "Tomos" and broke them away from the EP, or when the Russian Empire pushed the buttons of Istanbul to get political considerations (What were the geopolitical circumstances surrounding the "transfer" of Ukraine to Moscow...that is THE question the partisans don't want to explore.) <br /><br />One could also do a long paper on the unfortunate influence the Russian State has had on the MP (including it's abolition). This isn't about tit for tat (although some are making it that way). As Metropolitan Hierotheos said, the Canons are not "Cannons" and the pastoral aspect is being overlooked.<br /><br />NOBODY should be seizing Churches. This harassment is happening, but it isn't happening EVERYWHERE (the Russian media takes the few incidents that are happening and blowing them up to imply that it is universal). Metropolitan Epiphany is not responsible for what every hooligan does. Perhaps BOTH hierarchs can be given the benefit of the doubt, and prayers offered for both Metropolitan Epiphany and Onufry, because as I said before, this is a blood feud that will take a lot of prayer and time to heal.David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-20688140132192203532019-03-18T22:22:20.962-05:002019-03-18T22:22:20.962-05:00True. True. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14595250573998921657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-83573761726048690052019-03-18T22:20:47.635-05:002019-03-18T22:20:47.635-05:00A much needed reminder to everyone discussing the ...A much needed reminder to everyone discussing the Ukraine issue. Especially myself. Thank you Troon.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14595250573998921657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-85531972968154018702019-03-18T22:14:38.629-05:002019-03-18T22:14:38.629-05:00That link reads, “Bartholomew said that ‘for some ...That link reads, “Bartholomew said that ‘for some people, the Schism in Ukraine was the best excuse for abandoning these pious peoples...’”<br /><br />Hovever, “these pious peoples” are violently seizing temples from the canonical church. The litmus test that is used on “these pious peoples” is asking them to recite the symbol of faith, the ten commandments, etc. Not surprisingly, they are typically unable to do so given that violent nationalism & Russian hatred seems to be their priority & not the cross of Christ.<br /><br />The option of being reunited with the Church has always been available to them through repentance. Moscow has essentially no say in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church’s daily life. It’s a local / indigenous Church, and there is zero documentary evidence that it is “controlled” by Moscow or the Kremlin. That myth is a boogie man.Timmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06833797224685670708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-46402611520171590672019-03-18T22:09:24.541-05:002019-03-18T22:09:24.541-05:00They're also self ordained. If the Church star...They're also self ordained. If the Church starts accepting anyone who declares themself a bishop, we might as well become ProtestantsSojournerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01283481525249234342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-74178337715657195582019-03-18T21:48:37.988-05:002019-03-18T21:48:37.988-05:00Mikail, how is it different? Receiving defrocked ...Mikail, how is it different? Receiving defrocked and excommunicated clergy has been done by both the EP and MP in varying ways/degrees. You can dispute the legitimacy of the Tomos and characterize the OCU as an uncanonical EP Exarchate (that seems to be the pattern), but at the very least they are EP clergy. <br /><br />https://www.romfea.news/bartholomew-there-is-no-pope-of-the-east-in-the-religious-conscience-of-orthodox-church/<br /><br />HAH further addresses his detractors, including the issue of Metropolitans Filaret and Makary.David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-35559847202773211622019-03-18T21:38:24.704-05:002019-03-18T21:38:24.704-05:00As I pointed about above, the EP's centralized...As I pointed about above, the EP's centralized authority over the rest of the Orthodox Church imposed by the Sultan during Ottoman times is not the baseline or the gold standard of the EP's legitimate primacy, but rather it was an unacceptable distortion of primacy that was imposed on the Church from without by worldly / demonic powers. Sadly, the EP seems unable or unwilling to shake this from its consciousness. Ironically, the more the EP attempts to reinforce this view of itself the more isolate it becomes from the rest of the Church. It appears we are locked in a game of chicken headed for the cliff at full throttle.<br /><br />https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2019/03/18/the-pseudomorphosis-of-ottoman-ecclesiology/#_ftn3Timmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06833797224685670708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-74773701541184138592019-03-18T21:28:12.165-05:002019-03-18T21:28:12.165-05:00Hot off the press from Orthodox Synaxis, some deta...Hot off the press from Orthodox Synaxis, some details to back the above claim:<br /><br />https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2019/03/18/the-pseudomorphosis-of-ottoman-ecclesiology/#_ftn3Timmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06833797224685670708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-29481749719349830582019-03-18T21:05:43.551-05:002019-03-18T21:05:43.551-05:00Apples and oranges David. No other Church recogniz...Apples and oranges David. No other Church recognizes the schismatic, defrocked, UNREPENTANT OCU pretenders.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-62711923180317219032019-03-18T20:42:59.142-05:002019-03-18T20:42:59.142-05:00The boundaries of the EP's powers is a fair qu...The boundaries of the EP's powers is a fair question, and a discussion worth having. Unfortunately, it is a discussion that cannot be had at this time, because everyone is raw and defensive. The MP has been working for years to undermine the EP, making it a point to not address HAH as the Ecumenical Patriarch and through their media network (orthochristian.com and elsewhere)publishing hit pieces on an almost weekly basis-accusing the EP of "Modernism" "Heresy" and a host of other "crimes against Orthodoxy" (I know this for certain, because I was a longtime reader of that website and saw the bile often, I could ignore it because of the wonderfully edifying articles they do publish, but since this crisis it has become a flood and drumbeat and I am not interested in supporting the Church equivalent of Hannity or Rachel Maddow). As I noted before, there is somebody in the Phanar who has probably been reading that stuff and continues to read it. The fact that it comes from a publishing arm of a major Russian Monastery only lends credence to the view that this isn't just some fringe idea in Russian Orthodoxy, but widely believed. Metropolitan Hilarion has certain made some statements. <br /><br />How can a dialogue take place in that atmosphere? The MP is cannot be an honest partner, because they believe the Ecumenical Patriarchate should be abolished as an anachronism and is an "obstacle to Orthodox Unity." Honestly, How can any Council or Discussion take place with that going on?David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-78261661898461159082019-03-18T19:59:32.896-05:002019-03-18T19:59:32.896-05:00Are you Ukrainian or Russian, Randy? It seems to ...Are you Ukrainian or Russian, Randy? It seems to me that the Church is caught up in an extremely nasty geopolitical divorce, where each side wants to portray the other in the worst possible light. We don't know anything except what the Media tells us (and their "information" is highly suspect). People in Ukraine have their own opinions based on what "side of the fence" they are on. This is a blood feud, one that has been going on long before all of this drama. The Tomos provides a way forward, if the parties are amenible. Your characterization of the OCU (and on the flip side, the Ukrainian Nationalist portray of the UOC-MP) does nothing to facilitate healing. David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.com