tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post7995167122252015989..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Synodality & primacy during the 1st millennium and UniatismByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-41358052985947127562016-09-26T13:49:46.471-05:002016-09-26T13:49:46.471-05:00weaned off of a post-imperial territorial jurisdic...<i>weaned off of a post-imperial territorial jurisdictional paradigm</i><br /><br />I'm not sure that I understand what this means -- for example, why you characterize it as "post-imperial" -- but to the extent that I do understand it, I do not agree with it. The territorial principle in Orthodox ecclesiology pre-dates the association of the Church with the Empire. Indeed, I would argue that it is presupposed in the New Testamental record. So the territorial principle is not something that arose either during or after the association of the Orthodox Church with the Empire (whether Roman, Byzantine, or Russian). So it is not something that the Church needs to set aside or be "weaned off."<br /><br />The territorial principle emphasizes the unicity and universality of the Church, whereas a <i>mutual relationship between ritual and communio</i>, where "communio" most often means an ethnic subculture, divides the Church and was rightly condemned by the Orthodox Church as phyletism.Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-6935181772375466502016-09-26T13:01:37.107-05:002016-09-26T13:01:37.107-05:00Yes, the Orthodox still consider it canonically pr...Yes, the Orthodox still consider it canonically problematic. I'd go so far as to say that the Catholics and the Orthodox have two distinct conceptions of jurisdiction, hence different means and methods of coping with the phenomenon. The Orthodox are being weaned off of a post-imperial territorial jurisdictional paradigm, whereas among Catholics the mutual relationship between ritual and communio seems to matter more than geography. We can and should learn from Rome in this respect. Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813765935508406812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-77875046113837536382016-09-26T11:19:03.138-05:002016-09-26T11:19:03.138-05:00David J. Can you please provide a link or documen...David J. Can you please provide a link or documentation about different rites being under one local bishop before the year 1000? William Dalrympole's book "From the Holy Mountain" traces the journey of John of Moschos & Sophronius in the 6th century. While Dalrympole made his journey in 1997 he does have ample quotes from the earlier work about Greek Orthodox & Syriac Orthodox Churches for example in one city. I would like to read more about different rites being under one bishop so please provide some references to primary sources. What for example does Eusebius say?<br />Steve_Barriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01700596373993979010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-64190920463062795712016-09-26T10:25:25.652-05:002016-09-26T10:25:25.652-05:00In the first millennium, a local bishop of a parti...In the first millennium, a local bishop of a particular rite might have parishes of other rites under him. The proliferation of overlapping episcopal territories is a relatively new phenomenon that has only recently been accommodated with the idea of sui juris churches in the CC. In the EOC, I think the idea is still considered to be a problem. <br /><br />Chris Jones: The various unia have different histories; some are very similar to the WRO. David Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01910337488097178145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-62059606170649118002016-09-24T09:02:50.696-05:002016-09-24T09:02:50.696-05:00This is, I think, a link to the text of the docume...This is, I think, a link to the text of the document:<br /><br />http://panorthodoxcemes.blogspot.gr/2016/09/synodality-and-primacy-during-first.html<br /><br />but there is no footnote presenting the reservations of the Orthodox Church of Georgia.William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-4439399546097876482016-09-23T14:35:32.099-05:002016-09-23T14:35:32.099-05:00Матвей Касерлий,
The Western Rite is not a common...Матвей Касерлий,<br /><br />The Western Rite is not a common phenomenon in Orthodoxy. In the United States, there are about 20 parishes in the Antiochian Archdiocese, and about the same number in ROCOR. There are also a few Western-Rite Benedictine monasteries - I know of one in the Antiochian Archdiocese and one in ROCOR. Most parishes tend to be very small.<br /><br />In my opinion, "reverse Uniatism" is not a fair descrition of Western Rite Orthodoxy. Each Eastern Catholic Church is an entire local Church, with its own bishops and synod -- what the Catholics call <i>sui juris</i> and the Orthodox would call "autocephalous." But there is no Western Rite local Church in Orthodoxy, and no Western Rite bishops. There are only individual parishes under the omophorion of canonical Orthodox bishops, who have been given a blessing to serve a Western liturgy.<br /><br /><i>can't imagine an Orthodox bishop allowing anything like the Anglican or Catholic masses I've witnessed</i><br /><br />Liturgically, Western Rite Orthodox are very traditional. In most cases, part of their motivation for seeking out Orthodoxy in the first place was to escape from the liturgical chaos of both Protestantism and Catholicism. In my experience, Western-Rite worship is beautiful, reverent, and fully Orthodox.<br /><br />Steve,<br /><br /><i>If we are sincere about Ecumenical dialogue we orthodox should not be encourage Western-Rite Uniates in the Orthodox Church.</i><br /><br />I disagree. First of all, as noted above I don't think "Western-Rite Uniates" is a fair description. More importantly, I think the Orthodox Western Rite can be a witness to Western Churches of how rich and full their liturgical and sacramental life could be if they were reconciled with Orthodoxy.Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-60007735314038197372016-09-23T11:58:56.625-05:002016-09-23T11:58:56.625-05:00This video is very interesting and worth attending...This video is very interesting and worth attending to: http://fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.com/2016/03/an-orthodox-appeal-for-recognition-of.html Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813765935508406812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-83088311834846402002016-09-23T10:50:45.459-05:002016-09-23T10:50:45.459-05:00Thank you, Steve, for the last comment. The MP has...Thank you, Steve, for the last comment. The MP has a long way to go in terms of admitting, and healing from, it past horrible treatment of Eastern Catholics. While uniatism is not the way of the future, nor should it be, Greek Catholics have a right to exist and a right to their churches stolen by the communist with the help of the MP. The MP continues to beat the same old, unsupported, Moscow propaganda about Ukrainian Catholics. It is rather tiresome. The MP should take note of how the Antiochian Orthodox relate to their Melkite Catholic brothers. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02545044592290761591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-69917868838499133832016-09-23T08:42:57.335-05:002016-09-23T08:42:57.335-05:00I also think that the MP will soon find that the r...I also think that the MP will soon find that the rest of the Orthodox world and also the Catholics will not be supporting the Russian interpretation of problems with Catholic Uniates in Ukraine.Steve_Barriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01700596373993979010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-72562295443267613472016-09-23T08:41:14.531-05:002016-09-23T08:41:14.531-05:00Western Rite Orthodoxy is an anomaly and as an Ort...Western Rite Orthodoxy is an anomaly and as an Orthodox Christian I think it was the wrong move to accept it. Thank God it has not spread. If we are sincere about Ecumenical dialogue we orthodox should not be encourage Western-Rite Uniates in the Orthodox Church.Steve_Barriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01700596373993979010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-83001103067620513052016-09-22T16:37:24.969-05:002016-09-22T16:37:24.969-05:00I mean a fair description.I mean a fair description.Matvey Casshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14121365910878071505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-19366704788626631142016-09-22T16:37:00.928-05:002016-09-22T16:37:00.928-05:00Father, how common is the Western Rite in Orthodox...Father, how common is the Western Rite in Orthodox Churches? I know very little about it, and can't imagine an Orthodox bishop allowing anything like the Anglican or Catholic masses I've witnessed. Is "reverse Uniatism" a fair name?Matvey Casshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14121365910878071505noreply@blogger.com