tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post8677654656337617212..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: More on the EP's rejection of the candidate list for ChicagoByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-502509133431080112017-07-22T05:14:52.044-05:002017-07-22T05:14:52.044-05:00https://youtu.be/CprG4HYS_vI / Dear Anti-Gnostic, ...https://youtu.be/CprG4HYS_vI / Dear Anti-Gnostic, His Grace Bishop Sebastian speaks English very well. Please listen to this eight minute link and think again about what you have written.Pater Pavloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11666237461894057731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-49350007880855357402017-07-22T05:05:26.763-05:002017-07-22T05:05:26.763-05:00That is not correct. Six of the 12 Metropolitan o...That is not correct. Six of the 12 Metropolitan of the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate are from areas outside of Constantinople and Turkey, including from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. They are not people who live in the dark nor in the dark ages. They are of the highest spirituality. Pater Pavloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11666237461894057731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-72960055563439678262017-07-21T13:45:26.029-05:002017-07-21T13:45:26.029-05:00Perhaps there were good reasons for the EP to reje...Perhaps there were good reasons for the EP to reject Bp Sebastian. But there were three names on the list. Were both archimantrites also deficient in their English language skills?Arimatheanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06783088995172601340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-40710730459002170492017-07-17T04:29:24.990-05:002017-07-17T04:29:24.990-05:00(1) Wait a few years, and we will be reading that ...(1) Wait a few years, and we will be reading that all the candidates for the EP have been rejected by Ankara. Since the EP is effectively a Turkish civil servant, and not free to exercise his role, perhaps his see should be considered canonically vacant. <br /><br />(2) The Greeks treat their church in much the same way that they treat their government--as an opportunity to dole out political patronage, and as we have seen, engage in a bewildering variety of criminal activity. (Not that Moscow is any better.) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-15929698394592347582017-07-16T21:54:39.799-05:002017-07-16T21:54:39.799-05:00You have better odds resurrecting the Iroquois Fed...You have better odds resurrecting the Iroquois Federation than Byzantium or Holy Rome, both of which will end their days surrounded by Muslims and supported by foreign remittances.<br /><br />World Orthodoxy is not going to be ruled from a few Greek islands and +Francis can pack the College with as many European prelates as he wants. Ain't gonna happen. <br /><br />And who is going to be your Emperor? There are three countries that matter: the US, China, and Russia. US is Protestant Christian if not outright atheist, China is Confucian, and Orthodox Russia is barely hanging on. Inevitably, these three great powers will shrink due to fiscal overreach. Is that when Rome and Istanbul plan on making their move?The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-31754987657636245482017-07-16T19:25:27.047-05:002017-07-16T19:25:27.047-05:00The modern nation state is a creation of the Refor...The modern nation state is a creation of the Reformation. Therefore it has nothing to do with the Church. <br /><br />Symphonia actually is a product of an Empire with an Emperor. It assumes a hierarchical politity and not democracy or participatory system. <br /><br />Participatory systems are primarily secular as are nation states. Last I checked, the Church is not secular.Michael Baumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025213649848660526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-44461944892911774012017-07-15T23:12:08.933-05:002017-07-15T23:12:08.933-05:00bob is being smart and witty, which are good tools...bob is being smart and witty, which are good tools against pretension. And clearly directing his barbs against the obtuse American bishops.<br /><br />This is a problem. How do the hierarchs intend to solve it? Absent arranged marriages to make sure Greek-Americans stay Greek-American and willing to learn Attic Greek, children will grow up and drift away. Either the Greek bishops are counting on a new and abundant stream of Greek-speaking faithful, or they are seriously out of touch.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-13552026532079321092017-07-15T22:59:58.877-05:002017-07-15T22:59:58.877-05:00Revealed preferences: look at what people do, not ...Revealed preferences: look at what people do, not what they say.<br /><br />The Orthodox autocephalous Churches are all seated in traditional nation-states--you can look it up on Orthodox Wiki. Their daughter Churches in the Americas and Europe are all organized along nationalistic lines with their own distinctive Liturgies. The converts are permitted a place at the table, but all the dioceses answer to their respective ethnic homelands. The terra nova lands of Africa and Asia are being carved up solely on the basis of who can fund the most missions. The Greeks are starting something called the "Mayan Orthodox." Our host posts regular updates on the latest bishop of the Armenian Orthodox in Canada, or the Serbian Archbishop of the US Atlantic Seaboard, or the Carpatho-Russian-Something-Something of Western Pennsylvania, and on and on.<br /><br />I listened to a respected Orthodox priest speak admiringly of the Jews, able to preserve their ethnic nationhood in the US.<br /><br />Every single Orthodox bishop and priest outside their Mother Church's homeland is in violation of the 1872 Declaration. I have not heard of any of them refusing to administer the Sacraments until this situation is resolved.<br /><br />So either the whole Church is in complete error and we suspend Liturgies until we get this sorted out, or there is a truth we have not fully discerned. I will swear my devotion to whatever the hierarchy determines, but they don't seem to be in any particular hurry to resolve this.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-87760846803908632082017-07-15T16:52:22.441-05:002017-07-15T16:52:22.441-05:00Bob, you are being a bit unfair and antagonistic. ...Bob, you are being a bit unfair and antagonistic. If the source is to be believed, it was the EP that pointed out his English proficiency as an impediment. Most Orthodox Churches (Slavic & Greek) have titular bishops for special functions. (Even if this is historically and canonically wonky)Michael Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03910016378835393764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-9859887715257402512017-07-15T11:32:59.184-05:002017-07-15T11:32:59.184-05:001 There is very little desire in the OCA to be und...1 There is very little desire in the OCA to be under Russia again (we haven't been since 1924!)<br />2 I suspect Moscow itself can find reasons for retaining the status quo.<br />3 Read the actual Tomos. It did not even attempt to give all jurisdiction in North America to the OCA, nor has the OCA ever claimed all jurisdiction. <br />4 The Autocephaly given is spelled out in Article 2, all of which the OCA still has, keeps, and does, and is understood to do so even by those who do not formally acknowledge the TOMOS. You seem to think the possible violation of article 10 in a situation not quite foreseen in 1970 nullifies the whole thing. It does not.<br /><br />More importantly, the troublesome and incorrect notions of the relation of Church and nation.<br />1 your notion of "an actual nation-state" is no where in our Scriptural, canonical, or dogmatic tradition, much less some requirement for it to be "wed" to the Church. <br />2 Some, but **not all** of the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches, past and present, could be described as being "wed" to a nation.<br />3 That is a historical and cultural phenomenon (perhaps even sometimes positive) but not a dogmatic or canonical phenomenon.<br />4 Since it has never been the case that all autocephalous churches are so wed to a nation, it can not be said to have grown into the living tradition. <br />5 To make of it an absolute requirement is to place transient secular forms over the Church, which is so clearly wrong that it can not mutate into a requirement in the present or future.Fr. Yousufhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06430669853591411729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-76660290961503215112017-07-14T16:19:17.850-05:002017-07-14T16:19:17.850-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-1460299831380229822017-07-14T10:29:38.633-05:002017-07-14T10:29:38.633-05:00Of course there are no Zela-ites. He is "bis...Of course there are no Zela-ites. He is "bishop" of nowhere and nobody. And the apostolic geniuses have to be told (!) that someone without a grasp of English isn't a good candidate. Wow, we're in good hands. Quick, bring up the topic of ecology so the Green Patriarch won't look like such a greenhorn in his pastoral duties.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039146105983736459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-62455922534410382312017-07-14T08:41:36.168-05:002017-07-14T08:41:36.168-05:00With all due respect, the OCA needs to figure out ...With all due respect, the OCA needs to figure out a dignified way to un-ring that bell. Even the MP doesn't regard the OCA as autocephalous, hence ROCOR. The American jurisdictions are just cash cows to be milked since, after all, America is not an actual nation-state. This is why there will never be an autocephalous Church in the USA: there is no Nation to which the Church can be wed.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-76922268724446341362017-07-14T08:38:15.758-05:002017-07-14T08:38:15.758-05:00I'm open to being proved wrong, but "of Z...I'm open to being proved wrong, but "of Zela" is probably an honorific reference to his birthplace, not an actual jurisdiction. He had a cloistered staff position in New York City, where his limited English would not be a handicap.<br /><br />I'm not sure for how much longer the Greek-American heirarchy think their congregants are going to be "Greek." Perhaps they assume, given the EU's trajectory, that there will be new Greek immigrants to replace the children who outmarry.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-36890181307768017422017-07-14T00:55:10.532-05:002017-07-14T00:55:10.532-05:00Did all the faithful of Zela rise up as one and de...Did all the faithful of Zela rise up as one and demand not to be orphaned by losing their dear bishop? bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039146105983736459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-44039311488734226732017-07-13T19:29:19.230-05:002017-07-13T19:29:19.230-05:00Why?Why?John Willardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08446809365237160496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-58290493776453786532017-07-13T17:45:23.705-05:002017-07-13T17:45:23.705-05:00There is already an autocephalous Church in the US...There is already an autocephalous Church in the USA; The Orthodox Church in America. (I know, Istanbul doesn't recognize the autocephally of the OCA.) The LAST THING we need n the USA is another Church claiming autocepahlly.<br />Igumen Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13135448714524775075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-7243050655092713642017-07-13T13:58:39.981-05:002017-07-13T13:58:39.981-05:00This is why we need an autocephalous church. Even...This is why we need an autocephalous church. Even if the Phanar synod had good reasons, the idea that it, comprising bishops of minuscule communities, should determine the Metropolitan of Chicago, offends reason, tradition, and order.Deacon Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02808015295973601427noreply@blogger.com