tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post1520361223394827409..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Chryssavgis: “If one or more churches don’t attend, all the decisions made will still hold and be binding all Orthodox churches.”Byzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-78283866212460634902016-06-08T11:52:50.298-05:002016-06-08T11:52:50.298-05:00As a convert from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, ...As a convert from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I wouldn't wish the last 50 years of post-Vatican II Catholicism on my worst enemy... If having an "Orthodox Vatican II" is the EP's goal, then I shudder in horror. Ryan M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11882868061074539721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-82080645450846149912016-06-08T11:52:25.468-05:002016-06-08T11:52:25.468-05:00As a convert from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, ...As a convert from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, I wouldn't wish the last 50 years of post-Vatican II Catholicism on my worst enemy... If having an "Orthodox Vatican II" is the EP's goal, then I shudder in horror. Ryan M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11882868061074539721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-89909272557862288252016-06-07T23:12:59.748-05:002016-06-07T23:12:59.748-05:00You are correct, Dr. Butcher. Forgive me. The dist...You are correct, Dr. Butcher. Forgive me. The distinction is not always a meaningful one among Orthodox Christians, hence my carelessness in resorting to a more convenient handle. Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813765935508406812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-62026619254061594122016-06-07T23:00:20.792-05:002016-06-07T23:00:20.792-05:00Dr. Deville is rather an Eastern Catholic: a subde...Dr. Deville is rather an Eastern Catholic: a subdeacon in the Ukrainian Greco-Catholic Church.Dr. Butcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02490187143300157804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-64529946916165489562016-06-07T22:47:27.244-05:002016-06-07T22:47:27.244-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.James the Thickheadedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11128470567186118742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-25513195429713426002016-06-07T19:02:47.509-05:002016-06-07T19:02:47.509-05:00Their attitude stems from their new emphasis on th...Their attitude stems from their new emphasis on the primus. Manoussakis, one of the EPs theological advisors and an advocate of the Immaculate Conception (IC), explicitly stated that Orthodox objections to the IC based upon its unilateral promulgation by the Pope are in error. As the Primus he has the right to declare it as a dogma unilaterally; he even holds that it's binding upon the eastern churches. Now combine this thinking with what Chryssavgis said above and the statement on the GOAs Facebook declaring that only the EP can declare a church autocephalous and that any area outside an autocephalous local church belongs to them, and it's obvious: this is an attempt to establish an eastern papacy. <br /><br />For those in doubt of my claims, pick up the new book on primacy by SVS press and Fr. Manoussakis' For the Unity of All. maximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01086218903799586114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-5997156021233481132016-06-07T17:10:03.238-05:002016-06-07T17:10:03.238-05:00Sad that an eminent theologian doesn't realize...Sad that an eminent theologian doesn't realize that is not how it works in orthodoxy. Even if everyone attended and voted yes the results would have to be ratified by the Holy Synod of the Local Church to take effect because only 21 bishops are allowed from any church. The bishops not in attendance have not ceded their vote to anyone else. rhartschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02005412818602247908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-7441442214366477502016-06-07T16:26:04.644-05:002016-06-07T16:26:04.644-05:00All of this conciliar chaos is the direct result o...All of this conciliar chaos is the direct result of Constantinople pretending it has authority beyond a "primacy of honor", which in the eyes of the Orthodox world, it simply doesn't have. It is increasingly trying to strong arm other Local Churches, and I have a feeling more churches will withdraw.<br /><br />http://tass.ru/en/world/880451<br /><br />"Constantinople Patriarchate trying to impose papacy on Orthodox world"Christophoroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16334086480863954486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-60127380224111301252016-06-07T15:51:47.879-05:002016-06-07T15:51:47.879-05:00Maximus,
Thanks for the citations. To add to them...Maximus,<br /><br />Thanks for the citations. To add to them, I suggest this article by Dr. Adam Deville (a Roman Catholic, outside looking in of course): http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/4823/vatican_ii_and_eastern_orthodoxys_approaching_council.aspx<br /><br />No doubt the conciliar process is complicated and controversial. But this simply will be no Vatican II redux, in spite of the varied and not unfounded criticisms to that effect. Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813765935508406812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-39373827428833646382016-06-07T15:33:07.755-05:002016-06-07T15:33:07.755-05:00Peregrinus,
Many prominent persons have associate...Peregrinus,<br /><br />Many prominent persons have associated the upcoming Synod with Vat. II. Chryssavgis did so above. Fr. Peter Heers demonstrates this quite convincingly:<br /><br />'As researcher Maria Brun, a Roman Catholic specialist on the Pan-Orthodox Council at the Ecumenical Patriarchate’s Center in Chambessy, has written: “it is well known that the way in which the Second Vatican Council was carried served as the prototype for the work of the preparatory commission of the Pan-Orthodox Council” and that “the Orthodox Church ... had recourse to the Second Vatican Council for its inspiration.”<br /><br />Roman Catholic researches of the Second Vatican Council and the Pan-Orthodox Council are not alone in reaching this conclusion. The great professor of Dogmatics and saint of the Church, Justin Popovich likewise came to this conclusion... "never have there been summoned such conferences, congresses, pro-synods, and other artificial gatherings, unknown to the Orthodox conciliar tradition, and in reality borrowed from Western organizations alien to the Church of Christ."<br /><br />...In an article dating back from when Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew was still a Metropolitan, in the journal The National Catholic Reporter, the Patriarch said the following, revealing his intentions for the Pan-Orthodox Council: “Our aims are the same an John's (Pope John XXIII): to update the Church and promote Christian unity... The Council will also signify the opening of the Orthodox Church to non-Christian religions, to humanity as a whole. This means a new attitude toward Islam, toward Buddhism, toward contemporary culture, toward aspirations for brotherhood free from racial discrimination...in other words, it will mark the end of twelve centuries of isolation of the Orthodox Church.” ' (From the Second Vatican Council (1965) to the Pan-Orthodox Council (2016): Signposts on the Way to Crete)maximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01086218903799586114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-2211039956670347232016-06-07T15:22:05.968-05:002016-06-07T15:22:05.968-05:00The entire EP appears to be out of touch with the ...The entire EP appears to be out of touch with the concerns of conservative Orthodox. They just can't seem to fathom why people get so upset when the EP prays with the Pope and speaks ambiguously. I guess we mistakenly assume that they're betraying Orthodoxy due to our ignorance, nationalistic tendencies and contentiousness. The whole process was begun by Pat. Athenagoras, and we're supposed to trust him and his successors?<br /><br />Pat. Athenagoras: "Why do we not automatically return to Mysteriological communion? Because it is necessary for us to prepare our peoples for it, both theologically and psychologically. During the nine hundred years that have elapsed since 1054, we, the two worlds of East and West, have come to think that we belong to different Churches and different religions. And, as a result, the purpose of dialogues becomes quite evident. It is to prepare our peoples psychologically to understand that there is one Church and one religion, that we all believe in the same God—the Savior Christ. You and we respect all religions and we esteem the place and the time in which we live.” (from a homily given by the Patriarch in the chapel of Lambeth Palace, London, November 13, 1967, cited in “Patriarch Athenagoras of Constantinople [1886-1972]: His Statements, Messages, and Activities,” Orthodox Tradition, Vol. XVIII, No. 1 [2001], p. 10). maximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01086218903799586114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-42935806130232952962016-06-07T15:00:22.477-05:002016-06-07T15:00:22.477-05:00Hence, these documents are being put forward regar...Hence, these documents are being put forward regardless of objections and questions put forth by the various Holy Synods. The EP plans to "bind all Orthodox" and that was one of the objections of Met. Hierotheos of Nafpaktos:<br /><br />"...if decrees are made by the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church, which the hierarchs, monks and theologians ignore, and which are contradictory to the Patristic vision, they will be held responsible and subject to judgment and condemnation if they refuse to implement them?" <br /><br />The Bulgarians obviously figured this out and acted accordingly.maximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01086218903799586114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-41912202777670623402016-06-07T12:04:29.164-05:002016-06-07T12:04:29.164-05:00Thank you, Fr. John.
Furthermore, there are multi...Thank you, Fr. John.<br /><br />Furthermore, there are multiple Churches with multiple issues regarding this Council. These Churches include: Bulgaria, Russia, Antioch, Greece, Georgia, and others. And yet the EP has chose to ignore the voice of his sister Churches and mandate that all decisions will be binding on all Churches whether they attend or not. This seems to be the height of arrogance. The faithful will not receive decisions that are not Orthodox and forced down their throats.<br /><br />St Mark of Ephesus pray for us!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-13645919169453065742016-06-07T11:59:49.425-05:002016-06-07T11:59:49.425-05:00Yes, that's a fair criticism. But any objectiv...Yes, that's a fair criticism. But any objective observer could see that this upcoming council by no means approaches the scale of Vatican II which lasted three years and was attended by thousands of bishops. It's a shame it's being portrayed that way both by Catholic media and Orthodox dissenters of the council. Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813765935508406812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-63448631754959090022016-06-07T11:47:36.755-05:002016-06-07T11:47:36.755-05:00"If one or more churches don’t attend, all th..."If one or more churches don’t attend, all the decisions made will still hold and be binding all Orthodox churches"<br /><br />...if the decisions of the Council are Orthodox! <br /><br />Forgive my statement of the obvious, but we are consistently forgetting this important qualification. The Church of Bulgaria is simply avoiding participation in a Council that - as it appears - will not produce Orthodox decisions and will therefore be invalid. Its decision not to participate seem to me to be an attempt to reduce, as far as is in its power, the chances of the Council being interpreted as authoritative.Fr Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18039229794837415481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-79514542104692315872016-06-07T11:32:00.811-05:002016-06-07T11:32:00.811-05:00It is, too my mind, too charged a term to use if y...It is, too my mind, too charged a term to use if you want to say anything positive. Feel free to mention a specific piece of it (Unitatis redintegratio or somesuch), but to invoke Vatican II anywhere near an Orthodox preceding is like cooking bacon next to a synagogue.Byzantine, TXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-42825905658902916462016-06-07T11:16:42.157-05:002016-06-07T11:16:42.157-05:00"Vatican II, I think many Catholics can agree..."Vatican II, I think many Catholics can agree, has been a disaster for them. Not primarily because of what was affirmed, but how it was interpreted at the parish level."<br /><br />Chryssavgis is obviously not talking about the liturgical metamorphosis of the Roman liturgy in his comment. What's more, most Roman Catholic critics of Vatican II will admit that the proverbial "spirit of Vatican II" preceded Vatican II itself, the council being a mere symptom of a deeper problem. Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09813765935508406812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-1794611625111807212016-06-07T11:06:01.819-05:002016-06-07T11:06:01.819-05:00This interview is the confirmation.....it is a rob...This interview is the confirmation.....it is a robber council.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com