tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post4613071779714592050..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Met. Ambrose of Korea speaks with ProtestantsByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-30734452687453551852011-05-12T11:57:18.817-05:002011-05-12T11:57:18.817-05:00I visited the church in Vienna when I lived there....I visited the church in Vienna when I lived there. The vast majority of congregants were Russian émigrés. That did not bar non-russians (like myself) from attending and partaking. And I have a friend who lives in Columbia and attends the Russian Orthodox church there. It's a similar situation. <br /><br />The reason for so many émigrés all across the globe, btw, was more often than not persecution. That people have come into the fold over time (including clergy and their congregations) is not tantamount to aggressive proselytism, or barging in where they aren't wanted. Rather, people see something in Orthodoxy they are not getting elsewhere. This is the entire "Come and see" ethos. <br /><br />In some cases, the RCC has benefited from all the émigrés, such as in my father's hometown, where there is a large population of Lebanese but no Orthodox church. Many ended up converting to the Roman Catholic faith out of necessity (and some, I'm sure, out of interest). <br /><br />I'm rather certain that grievances could be named on either side of the argument. The big question, however, is one of ethos. How have Orthodox Christian missionaries historically worked, versus other Christian faiths. <br /><br />@ Scott: perhaps there is no actual dichotomy. Ultimately it makes really little difference, so long as we understand each other. Much of what I said above was hypothetical and semantics, and as an English teacher I get overly-charged on the issue at times. Forgive me if I contributed to your frustration.Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16236694490047619649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-84157394713845732582011-05-12T02:03:05.663-05:002011-05-12T02:03:05.663-05:00@Paul, how sure are u of ur statement? A cursory c...@Paul, how sure are u of ur statement? A cursory check reveals, for example, the recent consecration of the new Antiochian Cathedral. And most of the clergy are local or have Hispanic sounding names. I'm sorry, but I have to urge you to retract or back up your assertion.<br /><br />The fact is that the Orthodox have Bishops and Metropolitans of areas that are historically and canonically Catholic. They have an Orthodox Bishop of Vienna for God's sakes, the former See of Met. Hilarion. And now like the Protestant sects which are mushrooming all over South America, the Orthodox want a piece of the action too. It's rubbish and it's about time that they get of their high and mighty pedestal and acknowledge it. But I think they they will continue to want to eat the pie and have it too.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09356738924839809045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-88422174459700665102011-05-12T01:49:25.850-05:002011-05-12T01:49:25.850-05:00@Andrew: Most of the activity in Cuba and Mexico ...@Andrew: Most of the activity in Cuba and Mexico is promulgated by Russian emigres and local people who came into Orthodoxy. No "missionary" work there. Just an extension of Russian culture and local converts. They continue to grow because of the fusion of the two.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00164927623556923230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-73246504304168059252011-05-11T23:12:16.958-05:002011-05-11T23:12:16.958-05:00Andrew: As an Eastern Catholic, I couldn't ag...Andrew: As an Eastern Catholic, I couldn't agree more with what you are saying, and thank you for doing so. Of course, I suppose for the Metropolitan every country that is not traditionally and predominantly Orthodox is non-Christian.musicalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205584470229416143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-91387082177273834692011-05-11T22:05:14.011-05:002011-05-11T22:05:14.011-05:00I think there was some hogwash here that needs to ...I think there was some hogwash here that needs to be called hogwash.<br /><br />Here are 2 examples: <br />In the same way, it was not honorable what the Roman Catholic Church did during the 90’s, after the fall of communism in Russia. Immediately after, the Uniates ran to underhandedly convert the Russians with their centuries-old tradition into Roman Catholics. If one wishes to do missionary work, let him turn to other non-Christian countries. - Was it honourable for the Russians to take part in the forced liquidation of the UGCC? Which they did not apologize for btw. And now they still seek to confine the UGCC to a new ghetto.<br /><br />And this gem: "If one wishes to do missionary work, let him turn to other non-Christian countries." Is that why there are Orthodox Churches springing up in Cuba and Mexico which have been Catholic for centuries? Come on people, this is utter rubbish. I don't think the Metropolitan has honour if he continues to spout such lies.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09356738924839809045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-47462874602807553402011-05-11T18:13:01.180-05:002011-05-11T18:13:01.180-05:00There's nothing wrong when each Church uses th...There's nothing wrong when each Church uses the terms it is most comfortable with. But I just see a problem when people make false dichotomies. I'd like to remind the good Metropolitan that he is in the "far east" and I am "far" more east than he currently is and we see no problems with terms that are basically the same thing.Juliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06893150601023369479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-8267468593513355912011-05-11T16:40:11.801-05:002011-05-11T16:40:11.801-05:00But, Derek, sacrament comes from the Latin word, s...But, Derek, sacrament comes from the Latin word, sacramentum, which means mystery, so why even set "sacrament" and "mystery" against each other? What's the point? I don't understand.<br /><br />I get frustrated when everything is presented as "us versus them" needlessly. There are definitely theological problems that need to be addressed, but honestly, why create a dichotomy where one doesn't exist?<br /><br />That's my issue.<br /><br />-Scottmusicalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205584470229416143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-81511686932498383722011-05-11T15:28:20.738-05:002011-05-11T15:28:20.738-05:00BTW, I loved this interview. I wish I could get ac...BTW, I loved this interview. I wish I could get access to the question-answer session.Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16236694490047619649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-47159239838428952592011-05-11T15:27:48.567-05:002011-05-11T15:27:48.567-05:00I'm not sure where the good Metropolitan sugge...I'm not sure where the good Metropolitan suggests giving up preaching altogether in one's daily life. Instead, he refers specifically to St. Philip's call to Nathaneal to "come and see." This is the difference between evangelism (if there is a true justification of the word) and proselytism. <br /><br />As to his distinction between "mission" and "witness," I find it curious most anyone who has taken issue with this interview can't seem to get past what the Metropolitan himself termed a "preference," not a dogma. What of all the other live-saving words he spoke, in particular his words concerning the Holy Eucharist. That the bishop would distinguish between a significant word passed down through Western tradition and its equivalent in the East, seems common for Orthodox living in non-Orthodox nations. The same is often done (including this interview) between the words "Sacrament" and "Mystery." For the Metropolitan to say that the word "witness" better captures the "spirit" of Orthodoxy is something only one entrenched in that faith could say. Those outside may scoff, but I can personally say the word "Mystery" much better capture what happens in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy than does sacrament. <br /><br />Perhaps the words "witness" and "mystery" are better choices in general, since they both have established meanings outside the ecclesial experience. "Mission," like "sacrament," are both words handed down to us directly from Latin, and carry no semantical understanding outside the faith. This by no means invalidates the words, just as it would not invalidate "apostle" or "eucharist" or any number of Christian words, but it seems (to me) that while one cannot fathom a mystery, he can certainly comprehend the meaning behind the word, whereas a sacrament is both unfathomable and incomprehensible, unless someone explain the meaning behind "sacrament."<br /><br />At any rate, that the words are used by the Church in the English (and other languages) in traditionally non-Orthodox countries is exactly what the Metropolitan said it is: a compromise. Not sure why there's beef with that.Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16236694490047619649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-49627090860644839742011-05-11T14:17:30.567-05:002011-05-11T14:17:30.567-05:00from Romans 10:15 in Latin: quomodo vero praedicab...from Romans 10:15 in Latin: quomodo vero praedicabunt nisi <b>mittantur</b> <br />"Mittantur" is the third person plural passive form of "missa", hence "mission".Sam Urferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07806827231748991885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-42251853584176559512011-05-11T12:59:15.640-05:002011-05-11T12:59:15.640-05:00Christ is risen!
Sam, thanks for pointing that ou...Christ is risen!<br /><br />Sam, thanks for pointing that out, and Julio, I agree with you.<br /><br />Had I been able to ask a follow-up question to the first answer, I would have asked His Beatitude how this all relates to the great St. Paul. It seems to me that St. Paul went on Missions and said "beautiful words about Christ" in addition to giving a daily witness as well as the ultimate sacrifice. Plus, I'd be curious how His Beatitude would understand a passage like Romans 10: 14-15 where St. Paul writes:<br /><br />"But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent?"<br /><br />It seems to me that passages like this one seem to imply that the Church must preach the word as well as live it. Each individual must preach, live, and breathe the Faith as best they can in his own way according to where God has placed him.<br /><br />I think if we give up preaching completely, we have a tendency to lapse into passiveness and just expect people to come to us rather than going out to the byways and street corners to bring people to the banquet.<br /><br />I do think there is a fine line between evangelizing and proselytizing. Oftentimes, that can be determined just by the circumstances. I mean in today's world, a secularist and/or atheist might accuse one of proselytizing when really one is just casually mentioning one's Faith and/or just sharing it without any pressure.<br /><br />Plus, the whole "mission" versus "witness" is just a false dichotomy between East and West and one of the traditional strawmen that needs to be put to rest permanently.<br /><br />Thanks for posting this, Joseph.<br /><br />-Scottmusicalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205584470229416143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-5684448567094257142011-05-11T08:00:03.885-05:002011-05-11T08:00:03.885-05:00Thanks for posting. I linked back.Thanks for posting. I linked back.Matushka Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10522097149212770814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-18040391834996367962011-05-10T20:57:10.866-05:002011-05-10T20:57:10.866-05:00The reason that "mission" is not in the ...The reason that "mission" is not in the Greek Bible is because "mission" is from the Latin verb "missa", "to send", whence also "Mass" for the Liturgy (the dismissal (!) is "Ita, missa est" which became the name). This attempt to distinguish mission from witness is a little off, historically.Sam Urferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07806827231748991885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-54003376964215470952011-05-10T20:44:32.783-05:002011-05-10T20:44:32.783-05:00I generally don't have a bone in this but I do...I generally don't have a bone in this but I do find that "Western" mission and "Eastern" witness a bit of a hogwash since it's really the same thing. Don't we say that there is the "Great Commission" that the Lord gave to his disciples?<br /><br />Also, if it was true that there is no proselytism why is there a Metropolitan of Hong Kong and all of Southeast Asia when the Philippines and other Southeast Asian countries already have established hierarchies?<br /><br />I'm pretty sure you'd consider us mission countries.Juliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06893150601023369479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-53911166539621539632011-05-10T15:08:15.605-05:002011-05-10T15:08:15.605-05:00I'm sure there are exceptions, but I appreciat...I'm sure there are exceptions, but I appreciate the unabashed candor with which Orthodox clergy generally answer questions from other Christians. As an inquirer myself, I like knowing exactly where the Orthodox stand, and what I'm considering becoming a part of.CJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13883761718979175423noreply@blogger.com