tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post5015187147142510905..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: More on the fallout in Africa and its effect on the worldByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-83906327563764451192020-01-01T18:58:07.865-06:002020-01-01T18:58:07.865-06:00They are Russia's flock! These people don'...They are Russia's flock! These people don't want to be a part of this tragic schism. The Alexandrian priests who signed the letter saying they want no parts of the OCU tragedy are being persecuted. Wake up David! I do not see a reconciliation in the future as you hope. I think the EP has been on its way out for the past 100 years. I think it is more likely that we will see them in communion with Rome in our lifetime.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-11839153071572491982020-01-01T18:57:20.537-06:002020-01-01T18:57:20.537-06:00Jake,
I think that the Greek/Slav labeling is an ...Jake,<br /><br />I think that the Greek/Slav labeling is an oversimplification, as there are "liberal" elements in both. The EP has many "conservative" members and hierarchs (even if they affirm the EP's authority, to the chagrin of their MP partisan co-belligerents). These conflicts are a normal feature of Church life, and as you say in America it can become more virulent and acute due to the culture. I was fortunate in that I had made the decision to learn how to be Orthodox from those "lazy Cradles" and put aside the books (which had spun my head in all directions when I flirted with Traditionalism). What I found was a revelation. <br /><br />I would recommend reading "Saint of Our Century" by Sōtos Chondropoulos (on St. Nektarios) and "Beauty for Ashes: The Spiritual Transformation of a Modern Greek Community" by Stephen Lloyd-Moffett. Reading about the life of St. Nektarios (who was abused and blown off by Alexandria, Greece and the EP) and the reform of the Metropolis of Preveza (as accounted in Moffett's book) is a great antidote for despairing about "politics" in our Church, because it has always been so. There will always be good Bishops and bad ones. God will judge both.<br /><br />For me it isn't about who is "right or wrong." Perhaps both are right AND wrong. <br /><br />For me it is very simple: Anyone who sows division in the Body of Christ will have to answer for it before the Judgement Seat. <b>Anyone</b>.<br /><br />David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-58850405752682938992020-01-01T18:42:38.971-06:002020-01-01T18:42:38.971-06:00The Nativity Feast was a blessing, as it always is...The Nativity Feast was a blessing, as it always is---the eternal blessing of The Word becoming Flesh. I pray it was so for everyone.<br /><br />"The Russian Church must care for Her flock who do not want to be part of this schism."<br /><br />Capitalized for emphasis: THEY ARE NOT THE MP'S FLOCK. Just because they are Russian, doesn't automatically mean they "belong" to the MP. This is the very thing I am trying to say to you, Mikail. They are Alexandria's flock, period. Saying otherwise is ethnophyletism.<br /><br />Anti-Gnostic: Who says that was right either? Not me. Perhaps we can agree that there was plenty of mess on BOTH sides that could use a little addressing. A Century of bitterness and grievance is what is at the heart of this conflict between the EP and MP. Ukraine was merely the spark that blew it all open. A century of bile is the fuel. The EP and MP are brothers who are at odds, and like any family conflict, other family members get drawn into it. <br /><br />It is my hope and prayer that both get together and acknowledge the hurts that they have inflicted on one another, and a true reconciliation can take place soon. Such a reconciliation will take place eventually, but I would like to see it in my lifetime. It will likely happen with the EP and MP's successors. But God is always in control.David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-57689034977436937462020-01-01T11:30:37.607-06:002020-01-01T11:30:37.607-06:00Again, I think we might agree more than we disagre...Again, I think we might agree more than we disagree: the Church's ecclesiology needs major updating. The ecclesiology was developed under the Byzantine Empire, which is now vanished. The empire was replaced by nation-states, which are themselves breaking down with international commerce and migration.<br /><br />What replaces the nation-state, national Church model is above my paygrade but I hope our bishops are thinking hard about it so they can shape events and not be shaped. But I know of one sociological constant: ecclesia is downstream of culture. So if the hierarchs ever get around to reforming the ecclesiology, they will have to keep this constant in mind. Otherwise whatever structure they put in place will not work, like the Old Calendar increasingly at odds with astronomical reality.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-21140235682864489622019-12-31T21:45:55.939-06:002019-12-31T21:45:55.939-06:00"You sit in judgement of patriarchs, calling ..."You sit in judgement of patriarchs, calling them apostates and traitors, meanwhile you're not even Orthodox."<br /><br />Sit in judgement of Patriarchs? What are you talking about? Bartholomew has given a Tomos to a group of laymen who are pretending to be clergy. That action is uncanonical and Church destroying. We are seeing the ripple effects. Another Patriarch (out of loyalty to C'pole) does a 180 degree turn and stabs Metropolitan Onufriy square in the back. This is a traitorous and Judas-like behaviour. Their ACTIONS are not Christ-like....yet I pray for them....that they will amend the damage they have done. St Paul tells us: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.<br /><br />And what makes you think that I am not an Orthodox Christian, Mr. Unknown?<br /><br />Nothing personal against you, but nothing you have written seems to make much sense.<br /><br />Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-49656071491205032802019-12-31T19:22:34.714-06:002019-12-31T19:22:34.714-06:00I will only reply one more time Anti-Gnostic with ...I will only reply one more time Anti-Gnostic with a "but":<br /><br />I agree, the 'anarchic' model which you describe so succinctly is the model, "but" there are other realities which the model does not account for and which I believe are just as important:<br /><br />1) The model is an ideal and has ALWAYS required input from the outside, rather it be an Emperor in the first millennium or cultural isolation/oppression in the 2nd.<br /><br />2) Even when there was an emperor, the cultural influence was just as important as the refusal of part of the empire to accept the 4th council (namely Egypt and the less Greek part of the East), the east-west split (down the middle of the empire), and today's Slavic/Greek divides reveals to us.<br /><br />Now that the 2nd millinium isolation (oppresion is another mattter in many places) is over, the cultural side of the coin is pushing itself to the forefront. The speed and ease that a new ontology of "jurisdictionalism" is taking over reveals that the incompleteness of the model and it's dependence on "outside" cultural realities.<br /><br />You speak of this as "a problem" which the model can solve, but I think it is more than that - it is a dependancy of the model that is if not larger, then "other". You or others might say that I am leaning too heavily on a non-Christian anthropology and social theory, but I don't think so. I believe history and reality speaks for itself in terms "true" to a Christian anthropology.<br /><br />In any case, thanks for the discussion!Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-64336261122032467292019-12-31T19:01:17.511-06:002019-12-31T19:01:17.511-06:00"What I don't understand, is how people a..."What I don't understand, is how people are so accepting of the MP acting as the Patriarch of All Russians Everywhere...Many Non-Russian Orthodox accept the Russky Mir mythos because they have an axe to grind against the EP or they think the Russians are more "traditional" and that Orthodoxy will be preserved through them...There is this idea that the MP is more traditional and "Orthodox" and so the other Churches should join with the Russky Mir because they will "protect Orthodoxy..."<br /><br />David,<br /><br />Just to focus on this part of your excellent posts, yes. I am the first to admit that the Slavic side of Orthodoxy is more wisely weary of modernity, where as the Greeks are too easily swayed by what they believe are the "positive" sides of moderninity. Since monderninity is secularism, and secularism is a Christian heresy, the Slav's reaction is thus more "traditional" and conservative.<br /><br />This brings us to the typical Orthodox believer, rather they are a "convert" or not, in traditional western society (i.e. western Euro and NA mostly). Because of their experience in secular cultural, they often (though mostly on an instinctive level) sense that there is something "wrong" with the Greek/EP way of relating to the modern secular culture.<br /><br />Yet, also because of their experience, they tend toward a reactionary stance. One thing our secular/protestant culture does to us is leave us without grounding - anxious about whether there is truth and *where* that truth is communally known and acknowledged. We are always weary and searching for where the Church is and where it is not. When this anxiety reaches a certain point, it becomes an overt spiritual sickness that leads to a hyper-vigilance about the "boundaries" of the Church and obsessiveness around legalistic "who's in and who's out" and which layperson/cleric/Patriarch is betraying the faith this week.<br /><br />In a very important sense, all of us - but especially these sorts of folks never leave their essentially Protestant egoism/religious individualism behind. So yes, they are always going to be attracted to the weariness of the Slav's, and unfortunately they are going to be too easily swayed when the (some) Slav's decide to leverage these folks anxiety in a propaganda war.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-71001162527294093062019-12-31T18:43:22.642-06:002019-12-31T18:43:22.642-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-893332256687950872019-12-31T12:52:28.668-06:002019-12-31T12:52:28.668-06:00Same way +Meletius did it in 1922.Same way +Meletius did it in 1922.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-88865956704940510372019-12-31T10:29:29.658-06:002019-12-31T10:29:29.658-06:00See what I mean Mikail? You sit in judgement of pa...See what I mean Mikail? You sit in judgement of patriarchs, calling them apostates and traitors, meanwhile you're not even Orthodox. <br /><br />Nothing personal against you. I am taking the time to write so at least you are aware of these things. Time is short. May none of us hear these words from our Lord: wicked servant, should you not had compassion on your fellowservant as I had on thee?Marcelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14574713901122768231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-7161013034742944572019-12-31T10:29:11.339-06:002019-12-31T10:29:11.339-06:00The conciliar model doesn't need updating. The...The conciliar model doesn't need updating. The Church is run by the Apostles and their successors, the bishops. The bishops promote senior bishops for the good ordering of the Church as society increases in number and complexity. We're not a congregationalist Faith and never will be.<br /><br />The bishops call synods where issues are resolved by consensus; the Church is not a democracy. If there is no consensus on a matter, then it remains unapproved and should not be practiced. If there is no consensus on the threshold issue of a synod, then it is not held. A jurisprudential analogy is the "full bench rule" which you can look up.<br /><br />It's an anarchic system, because the relations between sovereigns are anarchic, not civic. The sovereign Patriarch of Constantinople can call a council, rent a hall and hire the caterers but if his fellow sovereigns don't attend, then that's that. All anybody can do is break communion or live with it.<br /><br />The salutary effect of this anarchic system is it protects the integrity of the Faith and Tradition. Also, the more bishops have to worry about defending their sovereignty, the less time they have to lecture us about immigrants and global warming.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-24304063237717755842019-12-30T20:39:55.762-06:002019-12-30T20:39:55.762-06:00The Alexandrian Church has decided to go full Phar...The Alexandrian Church has decided to go full Phariote and recognize the laymen who are playing pretend. I believe Russia is acting accordingly. <br /><br />You know how I feel David. And I am aware of your stance. We will never agree. I'm fine with that, and I am not going to start our tit-for-tat once again. I hope you had a blessed Nativity.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-10062914690822225522019-12-30T20:36:34.147-06:002019-12-30T20:36:34.147-06:00I will not respond to anything you say because I a...I will not respond to anything you say because I agree with none of it. You are creating strawmen and knocking them down. The Alexandrian Church has just recognized a group of laymen who are pretending to be clergy. The Russian Church must care for Her flock who do not want to be part of this schism. No one is talking about the Church being centered in Moscow. Do you not see what is happening here? Just like I told you, David...C'pole has created this awful schism and there is a ripple effect that is tearing apart the Orthodox Church. Hopefully, a council can reverse this tragedy and depose Bartholomew for his Church destroying actions.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-31467962255784802032019-12-30T19:27:27.722-06:002019-12-30T19:27:27.722-06:00Additionally, how is it acceptable for the Moscow...Additionally, how is it acceptable for the Moscow Patriarchate to claim ownership of every Russian community in the globe? "We have to take care of <b>Our</b> people." How is this canonical? The Russians in Africa and Asia Minor <b>Do Not</b> "belong" to the MP in any way, shape, or form. If the Church of Alexandria still has grace, than what the MP is doing is grossly uncanonical and the very crime that they condemn the EP for in Ukraine. <br /><br />Since when did "Two wrongs make a right" become part of the Canons?David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-26019539213687661842019-12-30T19:16:30.609-06:002019-12-30T19:16:30.609-06:00Mikail,
You are not responding to what I wrote. ...Mikail,<br /><br />You are not responding to what I wrote. How is the Russky Mir any better than Romiosini (which also is not tied to one ethnicity but centered in Hellenism and the Byzantine Empire as THE ideal society)?<br /><br />MP partisans want to replace one Imperial ideology with another one. The MP has long sowed the seeds of this idea that the Greek Churches are modernists with one foot in heresy and the other on a banana peel, and that it is the Moscow Patriarchate that is the "keeper of the flame." They don't have to declare themselves "Third Rome" with edicts or tomes, because their very actions declare it.<br /><br />There is this idea that the MP is more traditional and "Orthodox" and so the other Churches should join with the Russky Mir because they will "protect Orthodoxy." The more honest and open people like Father Andrew and others declare this blatantly.<br /><br />This isn't about "Russophobia." This is about the Moscow Patriarchate acting in the very fashion that they denounce the Ecumenical Patriarchate for. But the MP gets a pass because they are the "defenders of Orthodoxy" and the EP is condemned because he is a "modernist."<br /><br />Do you not see what is happening here? For all the talk of "getting over" Byzantium, so many are quick to embrace the idea of an Orthodox Church centered in Moscow.<br />David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-32724552123740196532019-12-30T18:56:49.262-06:002019-12-30T18:56:49.262-06:00"Say your goodbyes while you still can to ROC..."Say your goodbyes while you still can to ROCOR."<br /><br />On the contrary Joseph. I believe it is C'pole that increasingly finds itself backed into a corner.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-86274867717368718762019-12-30T18:54:55.651-06:002019-12-30T18:54:55.651-06:00And the man with only ad hominems to offer, contin...And the man with only ad hominems to offer, continues to make a fool of himself.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-1311955223751812962019-12-30T18:50:53.691-06:002019-12-30T18:50:53.691-06:00Of course it is Bartholomew's fault. He gave a...Of course it is Bartholomew's fault. He gave a Tomos to a group of laymen pretending to be clergy. Of course the CoG and Alexandria will not show up, because they are puppets of the Phanariotes. It is my prayer that Russia, Jerusalem, Antioch, Serbia, Bulgaria, Georgia, Cypress, etc...can all meet in council, reverse the tragic actions of Bartholomew, and perhaps depose him.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-47375619908964949092019-12-30T16:17:23.769-06:002019-12-30T16:17:23.769-06:00If the Moscow Patriarchate was wanting a dialogue ...If the Moscow Patriarchate was wanting a dialogue to solve the Ukrainian conflict, they sure have a funny way of showing it. This act will all but guarantee Alexandria will not participate in the upcoming meeting in Jordan. <br /><br />The MP is not interested in dialogue. A true open dialogue would entail openness to the possibility of recognizing the OCU in some negotiated form. <br /><br />The EP will not compromise on their claim to be the arbiter of Autocephaly, and the MP will not accept the OCU in any way shape or form, so there is nothing to talk about right now, because the two parties are not interested in a dialogue. Hopefully that will change, but for now it hasn't.<br /><br />What I don't understand, is how people are so accepting of the MP acting as the Patriarch of All Russians Everywhere. This idea of the Russky Mir is not some "Phanariot" cheap shot, but a real thing. Go over to Father Andrew's blog at Orthodox England and read it. While it may not be as colorful as Father Andrew, there is this idea that Russia is the guardian and keeper of "True Orthodoxy" and that they are the real leaders of the Orthodox World. The MP may not "technically" teach the Third Rome idea, but that is a disingenuous dodge, akin to the legalistic contortions Catholics make when they bob and weave on their doctrines. It permeates the hagiography of Czar St. Nicholas II and the romanticism of Holy Rus.<br /><br />Many Non-Russian Orthodox accept the Russky Mir mythos because they have an axe to grind against the EP or they think the Russians are more "traditional" and that Orthodoxy will be preserved through them.<br /><br />How is this acceptable? This is a pure political calculation with a heavy dose of romantic fantasy. It is just as distorted as "Greek Chauvinism." And yet, "Traditionalist Orthodox" accept it because they like how Russians pray.<br /><br />I honestly don't understand it. It is madness, and violation of the ideals that the MP partisans claim to uphold.<br /><br />"Yes, the MP is violating the Canons in their actions, but it is Patriarch Bartholomew's fault!"<br /><br />Madness. David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585542870280397211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-28347208059726838472019-12-30T14:47:21.400-06:002019-12-30T14:47:21.400-06:00"Give it a break....Istanbul betrayed the ent..."Give it a break....Istanbul betrayed the entire Orthodox Church ...pretending to be clergy....God will be their judge..."<br /><br />And the MP propaganda fart can goes <br /><br />BBBBPPLLLUUGGHGGLLBBBBBPPPPPPPPPPPP...BBBLUPPPPPPPHH...BBPPPPP...Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-85261082330157670202019-12-30T14:41:07.075-06:002019-12-30T14:41:07.075-06:00"Jake, do you care what the Ecumenical Canons..."Jake, do you care what the Ecumenical Canons have to say on this, or no?"<br /><br />Fr. John, both you and I have taken a semester or two of cannon law, which makes us both 2nd rate amateur canon lawyers I suppose (unless your a real canonist for your deanery). At least we know what we know (and what we don't), as opposed to the 3rd rate amateur canon lawyers who regularly post here.<br /><br />Not that our opinion matters, because we have two Patriarch's (the 2nd vs. 3rd Rome) who have differing finding/judgement on the letter and application of the same (canon) law. Now what? To whom do they appeal? Who/what is the "Supreme Court" when two Patriarchs have differing rulings?<br /><br />So now we are back to the much talked about "conciliar process" which for all that is laid at it's doorstep, has not actually appeared in person for a very long time.<br /><br />Beyond these facts however, there is the Christian truth that the canon's were made for man, and not man for the canons. Given the de facto ethno-national ontology of this Church of the East (at least since the fall of the Empire and really before that), and given that the Ukraine is now it's own nation state with its own culture, language, and people, is it not incumbent upon ALL orthodox to recognize these realities? Is not some technical "canonical finding" on the part of Moscow (or anyone else) that has the outcome of subsuming the Ukrainin people under the yoke of Moscow a dead end on a humanistic and Christian level?Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-42438780333398984402019-12-30T13:04:33.967-06:002019-12-30T13:04:33.967-06:00"..I think we'd agree it's a complex ..."..I think we'd agree it's a complex problem that the hierarchs have allowed to fester for far too long."<br /><br />We do agree. I suppose I would emphasize the other side of the problematic. If a hierarchal council, then what is the nature of that council and how does it work in the modern world? Perhaps where we disagree is that I think the conciliar model that everyone professes is now just an abstract and an anachronism. It's one thing to talk about a conciliar model, and it's another thing to actually have one even if you grant it's always going to be "messy".<br /><br />How is the conciliar model for example, really going to solve real problems such as the disillusion of the church in his ancient Syrian Lebanon and Asia minor lands? Even more problematic, how is a conciliar model actually going to normalize the situation in Western Europe in North America? How is a conciliar model going to be updated to reflect that the Roman empire does not exist in thus patriarchs and metropolitans don't really fit into the modern world?<br /><br />I think what moscow's willingness to go nuclear so to speak reveals is that for whatever reasons we are now in fact beyond the old concilior model as it is solidified in the current cannons and history of the church. Into this vacuum a strong cultural and ethnic nationalism is rushing. Without a cultural center which the Roman emperor provided in the past, the conciliar model is abstract and just talk.<br /><br />None of this means that a pope of either the western or eastern variety can "fix" this situation. But what it does mean is that we are stuck in this dialectic in reality and history is leaving the dialectic behind...<br /><br />Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-61202419912738797512019-12-30T10:41:55.425-06:002019-12-30T10:41:55.425-06:00LOL. Moscow is hardly the only See with an extra-t...LOL. Moscow is hardly the only See with an extra-territorial problem. +Phillip of blessed memory had the right idea when he publicly ridiculed the concept of "diaspora" Churches, as if everybody's going back to their villages once the baggage from two World Wars dies down.<br /><br />Moscow is probably in the best position just to cede the Americas; how much money do they even get from ROCOR? I don't think anybody else can though.<br /><br />It would be nice if OCA and AOCA (US) could merge and tell the rest of the world how this problem is going to be solved but I doubt that happens.<br /><br />Antioch (Central/South America) is becoming Hispanic (as she should) but then you have a looming problem with the EP's "Mayan Orthodox" carve-out.<br /><br />Like I say, ecclesia is downstream from culture. The longer everybody pretends this isn't true the worse this problem will get.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-22686384172624483192019-12-30T10:20:01.749-06:002019-12-30T10:20:01.749-06:00We're a hierarchical Church so I think those a...We're a hierarchical Church so I think those are the choices you're stuck with: global Orthodoxy is either a council of sovereigns or one sovereign. The notion that the Roman Pope is Pope of the whole planet always seemed bizarre and unworkable to me, and the idea that this role has devolved to the Bishop of "Constantinople" now that Rome is out of communion is even more problematic. The heads of several august Sees seem to agree. The marginal problems arise in places like Macedonia, Montenegro, Ukraine, which may not even be independent countries in 50 years or God forbid, Antioch in the event that Syria and Lebanon just decide to blow themselves up entirely.<br /><br />The Church is inhabited by humans and exists as a historical entity so things are always going to be messy. But I think we'd agree it's a complex problem that the hierarchs have allowed to fester for far too long.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-62634730866561330242019-12-30T07:28:50.943-06:002019-12-30T07:28:50.943-06:00It looks like you did not read what I wrote. Liste...It looks like you did not read what I wrote. Listen Klancko, you are never going to convince me that satanic Free Masonry, is a wonderful "religion" that is beautifully compatible with Holy Orthodoxy. So you can give it a rest now.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.com