tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post5527668055017737600..comments2024-03-22T11:37:52.668-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Africa turns towards OCUByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger98125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-7852008511676541842019-11-13T23:18:22.352-06:002019-11-13T23:18:22.352-06:00That article provides rather thin gruel to support...That article provides rather thin gruel to support the idea that St. John supported the unilateral consecration of Greek Old Calendar bishops. It merely says, without providing a quotation that he made a favorable comparison in defense of Archbishop Leonty's actions. http://www.rocorstudies.org/2008/11/18/the-development-of-russian-orthodox-church-outside-of-russias-attitude-toward-other-local-orthodox-churches-and-non-orthodox-christians/<br /><br />The fact remains, the bishops condemned what was done and declared it invalid.<br /><br />ROCOR has made mistakes in the midst of great chaos and upheaval caused by outside forces, but the Russian Church is again unified, and ROCOR doesn't speak alone.<br /><br />The EP is the one causing the upheaval in this case, and for no good reason. And the violations of the canons are undeniable.Fr. John Whitefordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03455863282054302939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-86927070000892483272019-11-13T21:21:28.857-06:002019-11-13T21:21:28.857-06:00Father, my source concerning St. John of Shanghai ...Father, my source concerning St. John of Shanghai was the article that I referenced above, written by a professor at Holy Trinity Seminary.<br /><br />I appreciate that you can admit that mistakes were made in the past. To err is human after all but what concerns me is that these mistakes represent a trend within ROCOR that continues right up to today. True, your synod is no longer in communion with the Greek Old Calendarists who after your reunion with the Patriarchate of Moscow do not wish to have contact anyway but ROCOR continues to impose itself into the affairs of other local churches by anticanonicaly receiving their defrocked clergy.<br /><br />This strips ROCOR of the moral authority shall we say to be in position to condemn the canonical violations of its political enemies within the Church.<br />Marcelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14574713901122768231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-49387301770736295332019-11-12T09:47:00.899-06:002019-11-12T09:47:00.899-06:00Thank you, Father. I assumed he was very young bas...Thank you, Father. I assumed he was very young based on the fact that he consistently resorts to ad hominem attacks on those who disagree with him. I stand corrected.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-45134453226891193852019-11-12T08:16:40.646-06:002019-11-12T08:16:40.646-06:00Knowing Fr. Gregory, I don't think he is "...Knowing Fr. Gregory, I don't think he is "anti" any ethnicity.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-48293614664884017322019-11-12T08:15:21.143-06:002019-11-12T08:15:21.143-06:00Fr. Gregory is not Russian, nor does he belong to ...Fr. Gregory is not Russian, nor does he belong to the Russian church. He is, I believe, of Southern Italian descent, but a priest of the Bulgarian Orthodox church under Metropolitan Joseph.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-8018510249278252332019-11-12T06:49:14.828-06:002019-11-12T06:49:14.828-06:00Actually he is not young by his own admission.Actually he is not young by his own admission.Archimandrite Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09894842027467584759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-76336414324693707422019-11-11T17:39:16.303-06:002019-11-11T17:39:16.303-06:00Hello "Unknown," the Synod declared them...Hello "Unknown," the Synod declared them invalid at the time they were done. I doubt very seriously St. John would have approved of two bishops doing this without the sanction of the Synod. You will have to provide documentation to convince me otherwise.<br /><br />The Synod did retroactively recognize them in 1969, in the wake of the lifting of the Anathemas against Papism. This was clearly an error, and the fact that it was an error is shown by the fact that it wasn't long before ROCOR broke ties with them again, because they were nuts and couldn't get along with each other. ROCOR made a similar mistake in 1994 when it went into communion with the Cyprianos Synod, and again, it was not long before that communion was only on paper, and then formally ended in 2007.<br /><br />These actions, I think are somewhat understandable, given the crazy ecumenical nonsense engaged in by the likes of the EP, but it was an over reaction, and the fruits of those actions speak for themselves.Fr. John Whitefordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03455863282054302939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-12137113862581955222019-11-11T14:52:31.002-06:002019-11-11T14:52:31.002-06:00"As for the consecrations of Old Calendarist ..."As for the consecrations of Old Calendarist Bishops, this was done unilaterally by two ROCOR bishops, who were censured, and the act declared invalid."<br /><br />Thank you Fr. John. I will need to respectfully dispute your account on the basis of information that appears on the website of your own synod which states that:<br /><br /><i>On 31 December 1969, the ROCOR Synod of Bishops recognized the legitimacy of episcopal elevations performed by ROCOR bishops for the old calendar Greek Church.*</i><br /><br />I note that none other than St. John Maximovitch was one of those who defended the uncanonical ordinations during the 1962 synodal debates over the issue.<br /><br />If ROCOR had indeed divested itself of interference in the affairs of other local churches after the uncanonical unilateral episcopal consecrations of the Old Calendarists in Greece, then it simply would not have returned to Greece a few years later to establish communion with the most extreme faction of them all, the Matthewites.<br /><br />* A. Psarev, The Development of Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia’s Attitude Toward Other Local Orthodox Churches and Non-Orthodox ChristiansMarcelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14574713901122768231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-53745540544697025602019-11-11T14:08:37.620-06:002019-11-11T14:08:37.620-06:00Not only that, given the political/humanitarian si...Not only that, given the political/humanitarian situation in Lebanon/Syria & implications of the EP's reading of his role in the modern world for NA, it would appear that Antioch would be a shoe in for MP.<br /><br />Still, I wonder. What if the situation on the ground is more complex? What if Moscow's involvement in Syria has proven to be heavy handed? What if Antioch is in fact hesitant to the MP's reading as well as sincerely looking for a real way out of the status quo ethno-nationalism ecclesiologythat the MP supports?<br /><br />All speculations of course, but I would not surprised if Antioch ends up in the end hedging at the very least, if not a kind of qualified support for the EP/OCU...Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-38950139948638555462019-11-11T14:06:21.878-06:002019-11-11T14:06:21.878-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-36981452283351097282019-11-11T13:17:08.851-06:002019-11-11T13:17:08.851-06:00Dmitri, it may be better not engage Jake. He enjoy...Dmitri, it may be better not engage Jake. He enjoys mocking and profanities as part of his arguments. I think that he may be very young.Mikailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06189539560391433081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-48250727326443337202019-11-11T12:48:40.117-06:002019-11-11T12:48:40.117-06:00LOL. Antioch is not going to recognize that mess. ...LOL. Antioch is not going to recognize that mess. They've already stopped talking to Constantinople over Qatar.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-31785041437555001992019-11-11T12:46:42.492-06:002019-11-11T12:46:42.492-06:00Thanks Samn!, so the centuries long struggle in th...Thanks Samn!, so the centuries long struggle in the Ukraine spilled into NA as well, with some opting to separate themselves from Russian cultural domination here in the "melting-pot". Even a very non-canonical "melting-pot" psuedo-synod like SCOBA in the 1960's recognized the EP's canonical authority in the matter, hum, very interesting.... Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-52646507518066964442019-11-11T12:29:38.130-06:002019-11-11T12:29:38.130-06:00Because in 1962, the main place where self-consecr...Because in 1962, the main place where self-consecrated Ukrainian schismatics existed was North America. And determining who's a valid bishop is kind of an important cross-jurisdictional thing to agree about.Samn!https://www.blogger.com/profile/14142811721903345946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-71669304893089606842019-11-11T12:12:06.012-06:002019-11-11T12:12:06.012-06:00Not sure what to make of that Anti-Gnostic. I fin...Not sure what to make of that Anti-Gnostic. I find his condemnation of ethno-nationalism ironic, given that the MP's position is as much a declaration of the status quo as the EP's. the piece appears to be more acting out of the fantasy of the MP being a bulwark of "canonicity".<br /><br />I wonder what the author will do when Antioch splits the difference (in some incoherent middle ground position statement), or even explicitly sides with the EP and "recognizes" the OCU!Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-8670432820180416312019-11-11T12:03:29.582-06:002019-11-11T12:03:29.582-06:00"Take a look at what SCOBA said about the dea..."Take a look at what SCOBA said about the dead hand Ukrainians back in 1962..."<br /><br />Thanks for posting that. "A" was done, just not along the lines of the recomendations of "SCOBA", which it must be noted is not a real or "canonical" synod and the Ukraine is not in any way its "canonical" territory. Why were they commenting on the situation at all? Don't they have their own existential and "canonical" crises (jurisdictionalism, de facto etho/national ontology, etc. etc.) to focus on? ;)Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-26086225817790871552019-11-11T12:01:51.151-06:002019-11-11T12:01:51.151-06:00Speaking of flip-flops:
http://araborthodoxy.blog...Speaking of flip-flops:<br /><br />http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/2019/11/jad-ganem-your-own-mouth-condemns-you.htmlThe Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-5591744936136093652019-11-11T11:52:10.899-06:002019-11-11T11:52:10.899-06:00Anti-Gnostic,
David was referring to the MP's...Anti-Gnostic,<br /><br />David was referring to the MP's propagandists' flip flop, not your characterization..Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-84933200468936856432019-11-11T11:47:12.998-06:002019-11-11T11:47:12.998-06:00As for the consecrations of Old Calendarist Bishop...As for the consecrations of Old Calendarist Bishops, this was done unilaterally by two ROCOR bishops, who were censured, and the act declared invalid.Fr. John Whitefordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03455863282054302939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-61286633870738798672019-11-11T11:45:19.542-06:002019-11-11T11:45:19.542-06:00Even such receptions require repentance, renunciat...Even such receptions require repentance, renunciation of errors, etc. Take a look at what SCOBA said about the dead hand Ukrainians back in 1962: https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2019/11/07/scoba-resolution-on-the-ukrainian-autocephalous-church/ <br />Fr. John Whitefordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03455863282054302939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-33807144126496339952019-11-11T11:27:43.786-06:002019-11-11T11:27:43.786-06:00Jake, if you continue to defend the indefensible ...Jake, if you continue to defend the indefensible actions of Bartholemew your can look forward to this in a few years. Enjoy!<br /><br />https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/tv-celebrity-priest-hosts-pachamama-at-mass-in-spain<br /><br /><br />Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12074757453191661543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-64853056804389640582019-11-11T11:25:22.423-06:002019-11-11T11:25:22.423-06:00@Jake
Any comment on the violence and threats the ...@Jake<br />Any comment on the violence and threats the OCU and nationalist groups have made against the only church in the Ukraine under Metropolitan Onufry? Is this the love of Christ? Or is it love of Ukraine that motivates these so called christians. We have no home on this earth. We are sojourners and foreigners. For Christians to fight christians over territory is not Christ. It is man in his death clinging to the dust from which he was made and to which he will return. <br /><br />Canons and rules are extremely important. But even more so is love. And love doesn't make threats. Dmitri Karamazovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03525305770517249043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-67850890682231083822019-11-11T10:50:21.801-06:002019-11-11T10:50:21.801-06:00Did I say "chauvinist and imperialist?" ...Did I say "chauvinist and imperialist?" I meant "anachronism."The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-72957878400299072762019-11-11T10:47:30.964-06:002019-11-11T10:47:30.964-06:00"...he does not have a conscience..."
B..."...he does not have a conscience..."<br /><br />BRrrrrrrppppheeewewwwwwwweewwwwsssspprrewwwwww.<br /><br />The ironic thing about all this is that it is the MP that is closer in spirit and thus more likely be in communion with Rome sooner rather than later. The MP's legalism has many parallels with counter-reformation ecclesiology and thinking. Third Rome indeed!<br />Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-29738881441866070882019-11-11T10:42:22.339-06:002019-11-11T10:42:22.339-06:00Try not to be passive aggressive Achimandite Grego...Try not to be passive aggressive Achimandite Gregory. Why are not 6 to 10 million Ukrainian's unwilling to be simply dominated by Russia? Are you willing to ignore simple human decency (to say nothing of Christian Love and Sacrifice) for a legal perfection of your own mind? <br /><br />What is the size and limit of your love Archimandrite Gregory?Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.com