tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post7107628559541077245..comments2024-03-18T19:31:43.125-05:00Comments on Byzantine, Texas: Abbot Tryphon on keeping children in the ChurchByzantine, TXhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17845681957622343484noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-16007498935035217552019-07-09T10:59:40.609-05:002019-07-09T10:59:40.609-05:00"Christ is risen from the dead..and upon thos..."Christ is risen from the dead..and upon those in the tombs bestowing a stomach"<br />I'm sorry I know that this is a serious subject that has to deal with the churching of our youth and the liturgical life of the church, but I can't help laughing at the "bestowing a stomach" part.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06277889467316537183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-59754045832691726452019-07-09T10:58:48.605-05:002019-07-09T10:58:48.605-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06277889467316537183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-55383774602748797512019-07-09T10:51:15.697-05:002019-07-09T10:51:15.697-05:00I will also say, that my Cousin Paul, even though ...I will also say, that my Cousin Paul, even though he is a die hard liberal; absolutely adores the old Latin mass he used to be able to attend as a kid before his parish switched to the novus ordo. He said "yeah it was in Latin, but I remember learning the Latin well, and that was really cool to have a connection like that to an old language like Latin."Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06277889467316537183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-29102383690251238942019-07-08T14:47:11.641-05:002019-07-08T14:47:11.641-05:00I understand your concerns, I really do.
However,...I understand your concerns, I really do.<br /><br />However, the Liturgy is where we partake of the Body and Blood of Christ, without which we have no life in us.<br /><br />Assuming that we don't want them to miss out on that, then we end up inadvertently teaching them that it is better to do something enjoyable and just show up for the Eucharist. <br /><br />We have enough adults who do this. They view the Eucharist as something magical that will "save" them without doing the hard work of trying to enter into the heavenly worship that we mystically join each week in the Liturgy.<br /><br />Even more likely, they will not attend at all as adults. It would be like not sending kids to school and then asking them to start as teens. Sure, there are some who would do it, but most would not.<br />Fr Nathan Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07670959685881968193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-87310923052172143012019-07-08T08:52:48.882-05:002019-07-08T08:52:48.882-05:00Worst of all, an Orthodox Subdeacon wrote those wo...Worst of all, an Orthodox Subdeacon wrote those words. I'm done engaging the man. I'll leave that to the rest of you.BorisJojicjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796218761394313699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-9655290500778418712019-07-08T08:22:10.919-05:002019-07-08T08:22:10.919-05:00Gibberish. I have never met a Greek American who k...<i>Gibberish. I have never met a Greek American who knows the Greek used in church. Ever. They know sounds. Which is not a language.</i><br /><br />This is correct. The language you and your peer group spoke in your formative years is the one that burns paths in your brain. The secondary and tertiary languages you learn later will never replace them. Kyrie eleison and Ya ra borham may sound nice and tonal, but your brain is not receiving them in the same fashion. "To thee O champion Leader" is simply not the same phenomenon to a native English or other speaker when rendered in Greek or Arabic.The Anti-Gnostichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04386593803225823789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-90437021485818739782019-07-07T17:26:06.475-05:002019-07-07T17:26:06.475-05:00The time to introduce English was around 100 years...The time to introduce English was around 100 years ago. To this day, as my confessor mentioned to me a few days before he died, a Russian hears "Christ is risen from the dead..and upon those in the tombs bestowing a stomach". Gibberish. I have never met a Greek American who knows the Greek used in church. Ever. They know sounds. Which is not a language. I can't imagine why a Greek (not Greek American) convent is in Washington State. They use only Greek in services, but strange wonder, do all fund raising in English! Some things are important. If people think in 2019 they should *start* English, it's too late, no brians left in that parish. Just close now. People born here need the language spoken here. Russians need Russian, not Slavonic, which none of them know, as Greeks need actual Greek, not Byz Greek. And no one anywhere ever needs or needed phonetic Greek-in-English, the "3rd language" in archdiocese liturgy books. It's amazing these things have to be discussed.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039146105983736459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-23037575392334573012019-07-06T12:11:54.232-05:002019-07-06T12:11:54.232-05:00I think you underestimate the number of parishes t...I think you underestimate the number of parishes that are using a liturgical language for the majority of the service. This is very common in the Greek archdiocese, at least in the Metropolis of Boston, where I attended a church faithfully for several years before moving west. All the Greek churches I ever visited in New England used Greek for about 60%-80% of the service. <br /><br />I can tell you from inside experience that this really is a problem, with real world consequence. It didn't bother me much personally. As an amateur classist, I enjoyed the opportunity to practice reading Greek, but it definitely made it harder for the younger generation of Greek-Americans to maintain any interest, and even for their parents who honestly didn't understand Greek either. Why, even the grandparents, some of whom had Greek as their first language, could not really understand the liturgical Greek. It was no more comprehensible to them than Chaucer's Middle English is to regular Americans. <br /><br />I haven't yet said anything about the other non-Greeks at my old parish. One man from Ethiopia, who is very devout, had trouble making himself drag his kids to church because he knew that they would understand nothing that was said and would have no idea where to focus their minds. I dare say it would have easier to worship despite incomprehensible language if the music were glorious and the sanctuary beautiful, but the sanctuary at our church was not especially inspiring, and the music was downright awful. Awful music would be a minor distraction if one could focus on the words, but without any grasp of the words you're hearing, the music and the icons are about all you've got to help orient your heart to God. I would point out that not all icons (or pictures used as icons) are up to this task, especially in some Greek churches I know. <br /><br />Look, I'm sympathetic to those who love their language even without understanding it, and I actually do want my own children to learn Greek, but love of the world greatest language must not take priority over the message and meaning of the hymnography. Again this is not a mere matter of a couple of Greek litanies or hymns sprinkled into an otherwise English service: there are still many parishes where we have only a couple of English litanies and hymns sprinkled into an otherwise Greek service.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14608181082246610306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-57813736474369180962019-07-06T10:01:51.524-05:002019-07-06T10:01:51.524-05:00An old starets instructed his disciple, "Go t...An old starets instructed his disciple, "Go to the window and tell me what you see." Obediently, the young man walked to the window and reported, "I see a blue sky, a shining lake, green mountains, and beautiful wild flowers and bees. The birds are taking flight and the clouds are silently sailing." The starets replied, "excellent. Only a fool goes to the window to see the window. You have seen beyond it. Now go to the Divine Liturgy and tell me what you see..."Dmitri Karamazovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03525305770517249043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-76354778725585578362019-07-05T21:52:48.009-05:002019-07-05T21:52:48.009-05:00". . . ENDURING the Liturgy?"
Why on ear...". . . ENDURING the Liturgy?"<br />Why on earth would someone who would write such a horrible comment even bother showing up to the Liturgy AT ALL???<br />Furthermore, if the Liturgy "is not meant for little children", then I had four space aliens in my family. They all loved the Church and services from infancy on into adulthood. In other words, their love has been life-long, and shows no hint of ever abating.A readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00330876142449304359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-62389005859875793902019-07-05T18:02:40.681-05:002019-07-05T18:02:40.681-05:00I'm not going to comment on this much, but I t...I'm not going to comment on this much, but I think Abbot Tryphon was absolutely right when he said that changing into the vernacular in RC churches specifically where "the dignity of the ancient western rite has been preserved" has absolutely helped those churches with evangelism and retention of parishioners. My RC friend goes to a traditional parish that preserves most of the TLM and has perpetual adoration, but the mass is said in English; and from what I can tell the parish is thriving. When talking about novus ordo there are varying degrees of traditional-ness depending on the priest at any particular parish. What really causes converts and young people to leave in droves is when the mass is bastardized, the church is a concrete box, everything is modern, etc.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06277889467316537183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-37170996680981319282019-07-04T12:48:49.416-05:002019-07-04T12:48:49.416-05:00Very well stated Lug. If we want to inspire our c...Very well stated Lug. If we want to inspire our children it must begin at home, with the father. The domestic church feeds the parish in a unique manner. If dad is commited the children have the vital link to the Faith. Statistics are reflecting this reality.Archimandrite Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09894842027467584759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-3825508269210088342019-07-04T12:24:48.245-05:002019-07-04T12:24:48.245-05:00I spent about a decade in Latin Mass circles, not ...I spent about a decade in Latin Mass circles, not only as a parishioner, but as a choirmaster. I will tell you that this is where the "growth" is in the Roman Catholic Church with the youth who are wanting to be faithful. I had no problem filling each of my choirs (to the point I had no more room to accommodate), and some in my children's choir begged me to be part of the adult choir. Compare that other parishes I have worked at - even with conservative EWTN-esque pastors - where it was very difficult to recruit and the youth were not at all engaged. <br /><br />Language, be it Greek, Latin, Syriac or Slavonic, is only a roadblock if you let it be. From my experience, what youth are most searching for is a sense of authenticity, a wellspring that will not run dry, unlike the liturgical novelties that have been experimented with over the past 50 years that have neither substance or depth. <br /><br />On the other hand, as Pope Benedict roughly stated, liturgy should not be treated as a museum piece. It must not only be authentic, but active and alive. Find this combination, and liturgical languages no longer are a barrier, but a living language and expression of the people of God.<br /><br />As I explore Orthodoxy, show me a priest and parish who embody this authentic, living spirit. That's where I want to be, and I suspect many other converts would share the same sentiment. We don't want some watered down version of the faith, and are ready and willing to make the sacrifices needed to become a member of that living body.<br /><br />Lug Dukhovnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16734012869313582104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-71043652222494269012019-07-04T11:01:53.171-05:002019-07-04T11:01:53.171-05:00Analysis sounds spot on. Jives with Andrew Gould&...Analysis sounds spot on. Jives with Andrew Gould's comment as well, need language for understanding but need balance of beauty/reverence. Michael Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03910016378835393764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-39218811972947968452019-07-04T10:11:42.904-05:002019-07-04T10:11:42.904-05:00Raised & served Tridentine, for me the Mass w...Raised & served Tridentine, for me the Mass went sideways not due to the vernacular but, as humorously suggested above, guitars, bongos, tortillas, the loss of reverence and other external elements. It was as, "Service ain’t over till the snakes are put away". During Liturgy as we approach The Mystery we bring all in mind, heart and understanding. Language helps. Bozo2Uhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01135391107531325048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-88727196947266942412019-07-04T09:00:56.328-05:002019-07-04T09:00:56.328-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039146105983736459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-55295137436041796492019-07-04T08:18:48.517-05:002019-07-04T08:18:48.517-05:00Christ is love, Christ chose the little children,,...Christ is love, Christ chose the little children,,, we mortals who think we interprete his message correctly yet do not exhibit love and tenderness to the children,,, if we want to grow organically we need to become more user friendly not user unfriendly and HARD on the people ---- parents know that children are nurtured with love,,,, how are we exhibiting love to our children? Albeit it beautiful and mystical,the liturgy is not aimed at children,, the time children spend at liturgy is not so special to them ,, we need to recognize this and become more proactive and child focused,, on the othwerhand, another topic,,, I have a very extensive library of prayerbooks, liturgical, books, Gospels and Bibles beginning in 1669 yet none of them say the same thing,,, it is although every era, every ethnic group, every demonation have their own perspective as to which translation is correct -- we have the new testament from holy apostles convent, the new testament of archbishop theophan noli, and the orthodox study bible to begin with -- which is correct? how about the other some 200 english translations of the Bible - which of those is correct?,,, we have liturgical books in our pews, yet the liturgical book used by the clergy many times differs etc. we love complexities,, what is the differenct between an antiphon, troparion etc? and what are they so unsingableand complex?,, do we have one as simple as Jesus Loves Me for our children or even adults to sing?, oh if we only had the wisdom to see ourselves in the eyes of others and be open to our weaknesses. I say this with love and compassion because we are loosing, and have been loosing our youth at an alarming rate. Just look at the number of churches that have closed and those at the verge of closing. But most of all, we need to realize that the minute we forget that God is Love and speak of God being HARD, we have lost the battle. Amenr j klanckohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18000371679565046691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-34280016605332360202019-07-04T08:04:42.598-05:002019-07-04T08:04:42.598-05:00We do it the wrong way around in the Orthodox Chur...We do it the wrong way around in the Orthodox Church: we play with the adults and teach the kids.123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-37973356133762668142019-07-03T21:47:26.041-05:002019-07-03T21:47:26.041-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-28218587856109097452019-07-03T21:44:55.214-05:002019-07-03T21:44:55.214-05:00As an artist, it frustrates me that the leadership...As an artist, it frustrates me that the leadership of the church focuses so much on the correctness of language and translations, and so little on everything else that constitutes our divine services. Could we not just as easily assert that our children leave the church because our iconography is usually bland, our architecture is usually atrocious, and our choirs usually sing out of tune? How can it matter so much that our translations be in good order when the whole liturgical framework in which they're presented fails to live up to the basic aesthetic standards of Orthodox worship? <br /><br />I'm an American who speaks no Russian at all, but I find myself far more spiritually engaged attending a Slavonic service in a beautiful church in Russia than at an English service in a bland building with a bad choir. I'm not saying this to be pretentious - it's just an honest fact for someone like me who is a visual, rather than verbal, person. <br /><br />There is also this irony. Though I speak no Russian, I have been exposed to a bit of Slavonic in my choir directing work, and I can pick out and understand some of the repeated phrases in a Slavonic service. When I'm in Moscow, where the choirs sing with perfect diction and the priests follow the rubrics correctly, I can follow the services just fine. In some American churches, where the choirs often sing so badly that I can't understand a word they're saying, and the rubrics are treated as loose suggestions, I often find myself completely lost (and bored stiff). So is language really the biggest issue here? Andrew Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09237116717370542536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-26218448124032766042019-07-03T19:55:49.301-05:002019-07-03T19:55:49.301-05:00Bless you for your clarity of expression! O that t...Bless you for your clarity of expression! O that these words were taken to heart. Habashihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746791255306731315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-17020470984219219492019-07-03T19:53:22.506-05:002019-07-03T19:53:22.506-05:00Very thoughtful and concise reply. We should also ...Very thoughtful and concise reply. We should also remember diversity of languages is a punishment from God (Genesis 11: 1-9). Pentecost is the Lord's overturning of that. Now all people can hear and understand. Using foreign languages in worship is a direct contradiction of the apostles example at Pentecost. Habashihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746791255306731315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-19251525308691811292019-07-03T19:06:23.875-05:002019-07-03T19:06:23.875-05:00But but but....r j klancko, what exactly is behind...But but but....r j klancko, what exactly is behind your analysis? That attention spans and literacy of all kinds, including (espically) spiritual, are really low in our secular culture and thus it is the duty of the Church to make Christ who is "boring" somehow...what exactly, "exciting"??<br /><br />Your generalized solution of "education" is just secular speak. There is not a problem in this world that modern people do not claim that at least part of the solution is "education".<br /><br />Christ is *hard*, the Cross is *hard*, repentance is *hard*. If your analysis and recommendations had this truth in them then you might be on to something, but as it is I can't tell the difference between your thinking and guitar liturgy + sock puppets...just sayin...Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152024447008244670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-19130278469814545742019-07-03T18:28:25.710-05:002019-07-03T18:28:25.710-05:00My opinion: If you can't experience the myster...My opinion: If you can't experience the mystery and transcendence of God during the Divine Liturgy (or Mass) in a language you do understand, then you won't experience it in a language you don't understand. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16872184962518926357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-73042886598650075.post-10770558188829609462019-07-03T17:52:14.252-05:002019-07-03T17:52:14.252-05:00typical celibate response,,this is why we loosing ...typical celibate response,,this is why we loosing our children and have lost generations,,,analyze the challenge,,, look at creage solutions and implement new ideas to achieve a successful goalr j klanckohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18000371679565046691noreply@blogger.com