[Long Post Warning] What strikes many people as odd on reading the Gospels is that Christ did so many things that one wouldn't associate with a supreme being. Why did he need to be baptized? Why did he have to go to the temple? Why circumcise him while you're at it?
Were there two natures so separate that the mortal coil had to be put through its paces even as the divine essence watched passively or pulled the puppet strings? Accepting the idea of a "ransom" could he not have lived and died without running through what would seem to be unnecessary activities?
The feast day summary I found answers this better (and with more succinctness) than I can.
As Christ wished to fulfil the law and to show His descent according to the flesh from Abraham, He, though not bound by the law, was circumcised on the eighth day (Luke 2.21), and received the sublime name expressive of His office, Jesus, (Saviour). He was, as Saint Paul says, "made under the law", that is, He submitted to the Mosaic Dispensation, "that he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the adoption of sons" (Galatians 4.4-5). "The Christ, in order to fulfil all justice, was required to endure this humiliation, and bear in His body the stigma of the sins which He had taken upon Himself." The circumcision took place, not in the Temple, though painters sometimes so represent it, but in some private house, where the Holy Family had found a rather late hospitality. The public ceremony in the synagogue, which is now the usage, was introduced later. I find that rather interesting - certainly worth pointing to when discussing the important place of the domestic church."Joseph. That's an awful lot of quoting with little real substance."
Christ was baptized:
By the mystery of Christ's Baptism, the waters of earth which suffused His Body were spiritually transformed to be a means by which the Holy Spirit may be conveyed to men, to us. In Holy Baptism, the Spirit acts through water and we are united with Christ. Part of Christ's purpose in Baptism was to prepare all of earth's waters for our new birth in the Spirit.Christ was presented to the temple in keeping with Mosaic Law.
Christ was circumcised:
Reply to Objection 1. Circumcision by the removal of the piece of skin in the member of generation, signified "the passing away of the old generation" [Athanasius, De Sabb. et Circumcis.]: from the decrepitude of which we are freed by Christ's Passion. Consequently this figure was not completely fulfilled in Christ's birth, but in His Passion, until which time the circumcision retained its virtue and status. Therefore it behooved Christ to be circumcised as a son of Abraham before His Passion.Certainly hard for the Greeks to accept back then and I think equally difficult for the people of today. This is one of the reasons why "Buddy Jesus" confounds me so completely. He is not a pal that I can talk to when my soufflé isn't rising or when I'm pondering adding ground effects to my car. To substitute egalitarian camaraderie for a true theotic relationship with God - He who is beyond being and I who am blessed to be made in His image - misunderstands His actions and if I may be blunt distorts the very nature of existence.
Reply to Objection 2. Christ submitted to circumcision while it was yet of obligation. And thus His action in this should be imitated by us, in fulfilling those things which are of obligation in our own time. Because "there is a time and opportunity for every business" (Ecclesiastes 8:6).
Moreover, according to Origen (Hom. xiv in Luc.), "as we died when He died, and rose again when Christ rose from the dead, so were we circumcised spiritually through Christ: wherefore we need no carnal circumcision." And this is what the Apostle says (Colossians 2:11): "In whom," [i.e. Christ] "you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of" our Lord Jesus "Christ."
Reply to Objection 3. As Christ voluntarily took upon Himself our death, which is the effect of sin, whereas He had no sin Himself, in order to deliver us from death, and to make us to die spiritually unto sin, so also He took upon Himself circumcision, which was a remedy against original sin, whereas He contracted no original sin, in order to deliver us from the yoke of the Law, and to accomplish a spiritual circumcision in us--in order, that is to say, that, by taking upon Himself the shadow, He might accomplish the reality.
The public ceremony in the synagogue, which is now the usage, was introduced later.
ReplyDeleteWhere did you get that strange idea ? Brit Milah ( Circumcision )
is never carried out in a Synagogue
The words themselves come from the Catholic Encyclopedia, but the idea conveyed there was not that it was ever actually done in a synagogue, just that icons and religious art depict it as so now (not in keeping with the actual events as you say).
ReplyDeleteQuestion remains as to why icons and religious art depict a fictious event. Does it not illustrate Christian ignorance of real Judaic practice opening the way for gross and persisting antisemitic superstitions eg Blood Libel .
ReplyDeleteRegretably the Church has never felt an obligation to educate its adherents or even its priests on the beliefs and actual practice of Judaism - the religion of Jesus.
The public ceremony in the synagogue, which is now the usage, was introduced later -
ReplyDeleteThe Catholic Encyclopedia is quite wrong
- and this ,a prime source of Christian information -
What other supersitions lurk therein ?
You're painting with a wide brush here.
ReplyDeleteVery few Christians understand the ins and outs of Judaism. This is partially because of the nature of the New Covenant and partially because of the separateness inherent in the Jewish segregation of Jew from Gentile.
Priests do in fact learn about Jewish custom as it related to the historical setting of events. Blood Libel and anti-Semitism in general are sad testaments to the treatment of the Jewish people and have no place in orthodoxy.
The Coptics, it should be noted, maintain quite a lot of the Judaic origins of their faith.
On the matter of the Catholic Encyclopedia, I still think you're not reading it correctly. "now the usage" has nothing to do with the actions of the Jewish people today. It has to do with the Christian art of today. No intimation of a change of Jewish practice is involved.
Very few Christians understand the ins and outs of Judaism. This is partially because of the nature of the New Covenant ...
ReplyDelete... ? making the Old Covenant redundant ? I thought the Church had now revised ( via recent Popes ) this offending doctrine.
separateness inherent in the Jewish segregation of Jew from Gentile
Whose idea was that ?
Priests do in fact learn about Jewish custom as it related to the historical setting of events.
Exactly so. 2,000 years out of date.
Ignorance is never justified.
On the matter of the Catholic Encyclopedia
I suggest you read it again - no room even for abiguity - just misinformation.
After reading this exchange, it is clear that the language of the Catholic Encyclopedia is ambiguous. That said: while 'Christians' per say do not have a clear understanding of Judaism, I would not assume that Jews generally are clear about Christianity or particularly the practices of Catholicism or other Apostolic faiths.
ReplyDeleteI don't think jumping to conclusions helps either. Obviously, most people have not been to a Bris, but the popular depictions of the ceremony are often 'in synagogues.'
I think it is pretty clear from the tone and nature of most films and Hollywood culture that if anything, Christians are considered to be like noisy children. To be placated only in most extreme of circumstances. Therefore, it cannot be assumed that ignorant bible thumping Jesusite are perpetrated this "superstition," as you call it.
While I can understand the need for clarification, comparing the supposed mislocation of a religious ceremony to cannibalism is hyperbolic.
Eternally valid covenant is the current wording.
ReplyDeleteAre you actually debating the Old Testament prohibitions from dealing with Gentiles on a whole host of issues?
2,000 years out of date? What new stuff am I missing about Jewish practice? I'll exclude so-called reformed Judaism et al.
I'll just say I disagree with you on the reading of the text.
My point on the post was to discuss the Holy Day., not to debate ignorance of cultural norms of the Jewish people. I'm not certain of your point, truth be told.
Welcome Mrs Darcy.
ReplyDelete"I would not assume that Jews generally are clear about Christianity ..."
a.Impossible for Jews in the Diaspora to avoid a knowlege of Christian practice and belief.
b. Jews do mot proselitise so the comparison is not valid.
" but the popular depictions of the ceremony are often 'in synagogues "
Josephus -please note.
Your reference to cannibalism entirely eludes me.
" Eternally valid covenant is the current wording."
This presumably negates your previous argument that the "New Covenant" inhibited study of Judaism.
"Are you actually debating the Old Testament prohibitions from dealing with Gentiles on a whole host of issues?"
Apart from the issue of "pearls before swine" - are you now blaming Jews for Christian ignorance of post- Temple Judaism ?
What new stuff am I missing about Jewish practice?
- suggest you study the Shulchan Oruch
http://en.wikipedia
for openers
It's eternally valid for the Jews. The NT makes pretty plain the interaction of the Mosaic Law and the New Covenant.
ReplyDeleteI'm not blaming anyone. I'm simply stating that as a people that don't seek conversion actively or set about informing the world at large about their faith you should assume that people aren't going to go out of their way to investigate. I'm reminded of the Vogons of Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker series:
"As you are probably aware, plans for the development of the outlying regions of the galaxy involve the building of a hyperspace express route through your star system.....and, unfortunately, your planet is one of those scheduled for demolition. The process will take slightly less than two of your Earth minutes. Thank you.
There's no point in acting all surprised about it. The plans and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning office in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your Earth years, so you've had plenty of time to lodge formal complaints.
What do you mean you've never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven's sake mankind, it's only four light years away you know. I'm sorry, but if you can't be bothered to take an interest in local affairs that's your own lookout.
Apathetic bloody planet, I've no sympathy at all. Energize the demolition beams."
To Josephus: what a compliment! You alone have confused generations of the worlds people regarding the Jewish people. Please give me your time travel secrets.
ReplyDeleteTo Jake: you just like to argue. Most people do not study religions they aren't practicing. And as to the Old Testament, given that we are still using a pre-Jamnia canon, one might successfully argue that you are not dealing with a full deck.
And while I totally agree with the Church regarding the "eternally valid covenant" of the Jews with God, it might be a little disingenuous on anyone's part to wholesale ignore the tensions between the differing sects of Judaism (because it took a while for the term Christian to take hold) in the first century.
!It's eternally valid for the Jews ".
ReplyDeleteThats nice to know .
"2,000 years out of date? What new stuff am I missing about Jewish practice? "
I take this as an admission of ignorance.
You are content to accept the distorted picture of Jews presented by Matthew and Co. ( with their obvious axes to grind ) as a true reflection of post-Temple Judaism. As long as you continue unashamedly to do that the Pope's well meaning Encyclicals are merely palliatives. I agree however that Jews have not in the past offered Christians a crash course in post-Temple Judaism. Understandably perhaps since such a policy would not have been condusive to survival. However Jesus was an observant Jew and one would have thought his followers would have been encouraged throughout the ages to discover precisely what he believed and practised and show respect and understanding to his co-religionists to today.
As for the Vogons - I not clear
to which side in our discussion you attribute the various roles.