Thursday, May 17, 2012

Sometimes ecumenism goes too far...

More information on this ecumenical event in Trier, Germany here (in Greek). I don't have much in the way of specifics. This is said to be water being used.

The Oriental Orthodox participated.

No ecumenical event is complete without liturgical dancers.


  1. If only ecumenism only went too far "sometimes"... The last few generations it has jumped off the deep end into "downright against the canons of the Ecumenical Councils".
    Kyrie eleison!

  2. Yikes. Ecumenical liturgical dancers. That's bad stuff right there.

  3. I think you meant, "Always goes too far". It is time to end it.

  4. I am usually also repulsed by what happens in ecumenical cicles. This time around the litrugical dances are what bother me. But as an Eastern Catholic I am not sure what is so offensive here? Unless of course there is doubt about the grace of Catholic orders. Help me out here Josephus! I really enjoy reading the blog btw.

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  6. IIRC, anybody can get blessed with Holy Water in the Roman church. Isn't it a "sacramental," not a sacrament? In that case, is it so different from me (a Protestant) kissing the cross and receiving the antidoron?

    As for the liturgical dance, they're on their own.

  7. Who is that Orthodox Bishop? Under whose Patriarchate?

  8. The Orthodox bishop in the photos is Metropolitan Augustine of Germany. He is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

    The "offense" of this event is the outright defiance by the Metropolitan of the canons of the Ecumenical councils which forbid Orthodox Christians (that includes bishops) from participating in joint-prayer with non-Orthodox.

  9. Why, oh why the liturgical dancers....whyyyyyy....

  10. Matushka,

    Which canons forbid simply praying with heretical Christians? I mean after all the EP sends a contingent to Rome every year for the Feast of Sts. Peter and Paul to pray Vespers jointly.

  11. There is a lot of nuanced talk on the topic of joint prayer services and the like. To my mind, what happened here goes beyond what is proper in that there were blessing exchanged. Also, I should point out that canonically antidoron should not be given to non-Orthodox. The Orthodox Church does not hold to the ecclesiology of the Roman Church and so the idea of "sister churches" is a difficult one.

    There are a ton of canons on the topic... here are two:

    Apostolic Canon XLV

    Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.


    That one must not accept blessings of heretics, which are rather more absurdities rather than blessings.

  12. Thank you Josephus!

    For Eastern Orthodox are these Canons immutable, or subject to change? And if so, would that only be within the context of an Ecumenical Council? Thanks for the answers!

  13. What a shame...

  14. Christ is Risen!

    Here is a two part article on praying with non-Orthodox:
    Part one
    Part two

    It is very applicable to the question of which canons forbid it, etc, while also mentioning examples of oikonomia. The author is an Orthodox priest in Greece. He has a book on the subject now, which is mainly an expansion of the article. Unfortunately it is only in Greek at the moment, though there is some talk of a translation of it into English beginning at some point.