A common question: Will these exarchs meet with the canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine (UOC-MP) while they are there? No. Hierarchs from Moscow and Kyiv have both stated emphatically that they will not meet with this legation.
(President of Ukraine) - President Petro Poroshenko had a meeting with the Exarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Ukraine - Bishop Ilarion of Edmonton and the Western Eparchy of the UOC in Canada and Archbishop Daniel of Pamphylia and the Western Eparchy of the UOC in the United States of America.
The Head of State emphasized that the beginning of the mission of the Exarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Ukraine, Archbishop Daniel and Bishop Ilarion, is an extremely important event for all Orthodox people in Ukraine. "It is also extremely important that I can speak to you in Ukrainian. This is a huge pleasure and understanding that Ukraine has a big part in your heart," the President added.
"I am very grateful to His All-Holiness, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew for the courage and wisdom shown with your appointment," the President said. "We know that Ukrainians have prayed for hundreds of years to have the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. The views of Ukrainians were aimed at the Mother Church, Constantinople. It is wonderful that the Lord heard our prayers," Petro Poroshenko said.
The President stressed a long way had been passed over the last three years: "And in the framework of this way, we can say now that we have come to the finish line. This is an extremely enjoyable news".
The Head of State recalled the celebration of the 1030th anniversary of the Baptism of Kyivan Rus’-Ukraine when hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians took part in the Cross Procession. “And before that, there were hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian believers who prayed together for the Lord to give us the Autocephalous Orthodox Church,” he said.
"If you look at the faces of people who then walked in the procession, they were all filled with joy, peace and grace, waiting for the Autocephalous Orthodox Church to come to Ukraine and become a symbol of the unification of the country, peace, goodness, which would finally contribute to the unification of the Orthodox faith and the Ukrainian state," the President noted.
 |
"It is extremely important that we have one more state-building foundation - the Autocephalous Orthodox Church," Petro Poroshenko emphasized and thanked the Exarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Ukraine for their great personal contribution to the provision of autocephaly to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
"We were looking forward to meet you. I am extremely grateful for the fact that we can pray together so that the Lord may send us this great joy," the President added and wished the success of the mission of the Patriarchal Exarchs in Ukraine.
Archbishop Daniel noted that almost a month had passed since his last visit to Ukraine.
"This time we arrived in Ukraine with an extraordinary mission, we personally represent Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and at the same time the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in order to continue working on the fait accompli that the beginning of the process of granting autocephaly to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has begun. We are on the straight line that goes to the finish line," Archbishop Daniel said.
"We have much work to do," he said, adding that he cannot agree with the statements by some mass media that the appointment of Exarchs will divide the Ukrainian Orthodoxy. "On the contrary, (we arrived - ed.) in order to take even more steps to bring unity for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church," Archbishop Daniel underlined.
He noted that the Exarchs are ready for the clear cooperation with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyiv Patriarchate, as well as for the dialogue with the UOC in the bosom of the Russian Orthodox Church, with the UAOC. "We have no reasons not to meet with representatives of different religious organizations, listen to their opinions and constructively cooperate with them," the Archbishop said.
In turn, Bishop Ilarion read the letter of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew to the President.
"It is with particular joy and spiritual exaltation that we would like to inform you that in the framework of the already initiated process of giving the long-awaited status of autocephaly to the Christ-loving Ukrainian people, the Holy Synod unanimously decided at the last meeting to appoint His Eminence Archbishop Daniel of Pamphylia from the United States and His Eminence Bishop Ilarion of Edmonton from Canada, both serving in the respective countries to the Ukrainian Orthodox believers under the canonical intercession and spiritual care of the Constantinople Mother Church, Exarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Ukraine," the letter reads.
"This remarkable historic decision of the First Orthodox Church will definitely contribute to the processes of granting autocephaly, which we pray for and work over day and night. With this joyful message from the Constantinople Mother Church, the First Orthodox Church, we warmly congratulate you on faith in the wonderful process that we, together with you, have initiated for the spiritual prosperity and independence of the Christ-loving and long-suffering Ukraine," the letter reads.
Archbishop Daniel also informed that several meetings had already been set up with various representatives of religious organizations.
The Head of State thanked Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew for this letter and stressed that he was touched by the words of His All-Holiness: "I ask to convey the words of my personal gratitude and gratitude of the entire Ukrainian Orthodox people to His All-Holiness. The Lord hears our prayers".
The President stressed that the church should be separated from the state and especially from a foreign state. "And to date, the influence of a foreign state convinces us even more of the correctness of our actions," he noted.
"I sincerely wish success, Your Eminence, to your extremely important mission. We pray that it will lead to an appropriate decision as soon as possible. And from our part we will do everything to enable you to communicate with all religious communities. We will do everything to ensure that this long-awaited decision is taken," Petro Poroshenko said. He also noted that he would prepare a letter in response to the Ecumenical Patriarch.
Posts
"Baptism of Kyivan Rus’-Ukraine" Note this continuing attempt to anachronistically conflate Kyivan Rus' with Ukraine, and the implicit corollary (openly stated by Abp. Job Getcha and other EP hierarchs) that Russians are not descended from Kyivan Rus'. And in fact Ukrainian nationalists love to make a claim that Russians are actually Mongols or somehow impure. In indulging this claim, the EP is feeding racism.
ReplyDeleteRussia is just as guilty in this area as Ukrainian nationalists are to, "anachronistically conflate Kyivan Rus'" with Russia...I have read it again and again in Russian historical and spiritual literature.
DeleteIt's unfortunate no matter who does it; however, when Russian nationalists do it, they typically include Ukrainians as "Russians." They do not adopt a racialist narrative to exclude them.
Delete"when Russian nationalists do it, they typically include Ukrainians as "Russians." They do not adopt a racialist narrative to exclude them. "
DeleteThat's just it - Ukrainians don't consider themselves "Russian", thus it is "racialist" when the Russians do it - in other words it is an act of power and not agape from the Ukrainian perspective to be included as "Russian" in this Russian nationalist narrative...
Ukrainian is neologism. Whether one is Russian or Ukrainian they are indisputably eastern slavs. Ukraine never existed in the history of the world as an independent state until 27 years ago. It is a failed experiment.
DeleteAt least we are honest that this is a racial fight...
DeleteThere's a difference between asserting a unity, real or imagined, based on common roots, versus claiming the other party is actually foreign and racially other, if not inferior. Moreover, cries of "But the Russians do it too!" don't work here since there are hierarchs of the EP (e.g. Metropolitan Elpidophoros) who are now making the claim that Russians are not Rus'.
DeleteThe whole human race is contemptible with all sides having a POV that holds them further from God than realized due to their own foolish pride.
DeleteThat racist stuff is plain foolish. I have seen plenty of Asian looking Ukrainians. It is true that Fennic tribes once inhabited the area around Moscow. But DNA testing would show anyone that there is no "pure" race.
DeleteThere actually was discrimination against Finns here in North America based on the idea that the Fenno-Ugric peoples are Mongols. There used to be the theory of one super Uralic-Altaic language family which included Finns, Hungarians, Turks, Mongols; some even included Koreans and Japanese. This theory has largely been discredited.
I forgot to add that the two best known Fenno-Ugric peoples are the Finns and Hungarians. Neither of these nationalities has been known to be especially friendly towards Russia for historical reasons.
DeleteIf I may, it isn't that the exarchs won't "meet with the canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine (UOC-MP)." It is rather that the UOC-MP won't meet with the exarchs. FWIW, if I recall correctly, the MP didn't want to discuss the Ukrainian at the planned council in Crete and threatened to not attend if Ukraine was on the agenda. The EP took Ukraine off the agenda and the MP sill pulled out just before the council.
ReplyDeleteCorrect.
DeleteMaybe the sentence structure wasn't clear Fr. Gregory. Exarchs are there. UOC-MP and ROC said they wouldn't meet with them because they weren't invited.
DeleteWhat ever the details of who says whom was "invited", the deeper disagreement is who has *standing* to invite anyone at all - there is no procedural agreement because of fundamental differences in canonical interpretation/ecclesiology...
DeleteThanks for the response Josephus Flavius!
DeleteNo, Jake, it was men’s foolish pride that precluded meetings with "the other". That and some passions involving power mixed up with monied interests. IOW, we are not in Heaven yet.
Delete" The EP took Ukraine off the agenda and the MP sill pulled out just before the council. "
ReplyDeleteHas anyone authoritatively (Met. Hiliaron for example) said why the ROC pulled out? I seem to recall it being centered (at least formally) on the ROC fundamental disagreement with the strange document focused & committee like voting structure (not all bishops vote, etc.), which itself apparently was undergoing late revisal (even though the planning was decades old)? Going from memory here...
AFAIK, Pat. Bart did not have the authority to call it in the first place since he did not have the approval of the other Primates. Antioch had made their objections clear for years and they were ignored by Istanbul. They weren't attending, then Georgia and I believe Bulgaria pulled out. Moscow rightly said we cannot meet unless we all meet. They suggested postponing for a little while to address everyone's concerns. The EP refused so Moscow refused to waste its time. To date not a single church has ratified the "council" of Crete.
DeleteHummmm...I recall Antioch disagreed with the EP's non-action in Antioch's disagreement with Jerusalem over Qatar. In other words Antioch agreed with the EP's canonical position to mediate and further, to call a council.
DeleteIf what you say about Moscow formal reasoning is true, that still does not imply that Moscow did not recognize the EP's canonical position to call a council - rather this would be a pragmatic statement of failure of the EP to actually call a council....perhaps....
I am not aware (are you?) of any canonical or otherwise formal method of "ratifying" a council at all. Historically we witness some councils were "received" and others were not, but this is an informal process of the whole Church (including - especially - the laity) that takes significant time...
Moscow's stated reason for pulling out of the council was chiefly due to the absence of Antioch, Georgia, and Bulgaria without whom it was not possible to have meaningful consensus. Whether one takes them at their word is another matter but that's what they said.
DeleteGosh...it seems like you guys couldn't all agree to hold a Council together even if the end of the world was upon you...
DeleteIt's like the Orthodox Church is perpetually paralyzed from making universal decisions of any importance...if you all cannot agree to even MEET together to for serious discussion on non-dogmatic issues, instead, acting like the video below, how could you ever even begin to think an Ecumenical Council could be called ever again???...there would be at least one patriarchate would refuse to come for some very weighty reasons, like perhaps...someone has invaded MY canonical territory!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nea44Nx39A
Its almost like Ecumenical Council’s don’t just happen for fun, or because we feel like it, but according to the will and timing of God. Also, have you read the Book of Acts? When has Christianity ever presented itself as orderly and perfect? Have you met humanity? Thank God, the Church is not in the hands of men, but Christ.
DeleteThe Church has divine authority to call a Council when the need arises, and should be able to do this without having to worry about Patriarchs bailing out at the last minute with the whole thing falling to pieces just because they don't like some things about how it's getting set up...perhaps the Orthodox Church needs some sort of universal emperor again who can force patriarchs and bishops to come and participate in a Council whether they like it or not.
DeleteThe only issues remaining are the process of autocephaly and the 'diaspora' Churches. They were not on the Crete agenda because we are nowhere close to any consensus. We don't need a Council to say abortion and sodomy are bad, families are good, and we should be stewards of the environment.
DeleteThe MP isn't a monolithic group. Bishops are all individuals. Certain Churches have always had larger numbers than others in history but that never led them to adopt some novel method of voting (till Crete).
DeleteIsn't this wonderful? Putative American and Canadian bishops can be plucked up and set down in Ukraine by a Patriarch in Turkey with no love lost for their New World Sees and no actual skin in the game anywhere but the Old Country.
ReplyDeleteIt's like Americans and Canadians don't exist as a people to which a Church can become culturally wedded. The US and Canadian congregations are just cash cows for diaspora Churches, and the Ukrainians and others can shuffle between here and their real, authentic country as needed.
You got it right. They have no care for our nations of so called diaspora. Anathema to self serving wolves.
DeleteThe Anti-Gnostic, I never thought of it this way. Very interesting.
DeleteGood in what way? As moral men yes I know them. But even they lack courage and are sterile. This is the time for fearless godly leadership.
DeleteQuestions:
ReplyDeleteWhy not create an American autocephalous church?
Is a church that is violently divided mature enough for autocephaly?
Is autocephaly a cure for violent division? Or is it the sign of a mature united local church?
Why not heal the Greek Old Calendar schism by using the same means?
There IS an Autocephalous American Church. It's called the OCA.
DeleteAs to the Greek Old Calendar church, good question. If they are said to be outside of the church, why is the Papacy considered to be inside the church? After all, they broke with us long before the Greek Old Calendarists.
Nationalism in the church is bad if you're n a weak former satellite state that has developed its own cultural identity apart from it's larger neighbor, but nationalism in the church is good if you serve a powerful state whose identity and pride depend on regaining a colonial and imperialist past over weaker neighbors who you claim as your own despite what they say.
ReplyDeleteAnd their nationalist schismatics should (literally) go to hell if they won't submit to proper canonical authority the way our ecclesiastical revolutionaries did not when we gained autocephaly.
Really, this nonsense makes a strong case for the branch theory of ecumenism. Every community should simply reflect on the faith and agree to a local expression rather then paying lip service to the imperially inspired imposition of an imagined, constructed orthodox, catholic uniformity where none previously existed in history. It becomes more and more obvious they/we are all making it up based on our own preferences, usually as mediated through a preferred guru/geron/starets/synod/bishop/professor/writer/family member thus magnifying the reality of the choice it's based on.
ReplyDeleteShould have included state, party, ethnicity, and politician in that list, too.
DeleteSane. Problematic but honest and clear minded comment. Thanks
DeleteWhy would you wish for anyone to go to hell? Will that help your salvation?
DeleteI was speaking as the MP being more interested in its rights than it is in bringing back to the Church millions of Ukrainian believers (whose Ukrainian nationalism can't stomach the MP's Russian nationalism).
Delete"It is also extremely important that I can speak to you in Ukrainian."
ReplyDeleteIt's almost as if President Poroshenko is implying that Metropolitan Onuphriy is unable to speak Ukrainian. In fact, he not only speaks Ukrainian, but even his Russian sounds Ukrainian.
I am still flabbergasted by the idea that Constantinople felt the need to get involved based on some (supposed) idea that the Moscow Patriarchate was somehow unable to 'deal with' the schisms in Ukraine, and as if this somehow indicates that Constantinople needs to step in.
Two groups considered it so necessary to express their Ukrainian identity that they were willing to go into schism to protect it. If their overall main goal is to preserve their Ukrainian-ness, then they are doing a wonderful job and we can congratulate them. They have formed two organizations that will surely do their best to keep Ukrainians as Ukrainian as possible.
However, no one whose main concern is communion with Christ would ever take such drastic and uncanonical steps. As a half-Canadian, half-American who became acquainted with Orthodoxy while living in Ukraine but converted after moving to Russia, I am used to the fact that very little about Orthodoxy suits my "nationality" — I confess is a language that isn't my first language (Russian), I read prayers in a language that is no one's first language (Slavonic), and there is so much in Orthodoxy remains, even after 5+ years, quite "foreign" to me. The idea, however, of agitating for that to change (as if in the overall scheme of things it's not me that needs to change) or going into schism because I don't like where the hierarchy has citizenship is beyond bizarre. It's simply not searching for Christ in His Church.
Let the schismatics do whatever they want, God gave people free will and never instructed us to infringe on it. But let's call a spade a space. Denisenko is the head of a Ukrainian pride club. If he cared so much about being right in God's eyes, he'd repent. End of story.
Denisenko wants the anathema to be "annulled" just as Adam, having sinned and realizing that he was naked, covered himself with fig leaves.
Giving any legitimacy to schismatics would be depriving Denisenko and his minions the possibility of repentance. And that would do more damage than harm to these poor men.
Lord, have mercy on their unwitting followers who, after decades of Bolshevik atheism, never learned what canonicity is or why it matters!
David, I am a bit confused. I didn't use the phrase "Holy Rus." I am not sure where you got that from. Perhaps I missed something?
DeleteAnd I'm not dismissing anyone's "real hurt." My point is that your "real hurt" shouldn't stop you from recognizing the canonical Church of Christ with its Grace-giving mysteries. Orthodox Christianity is neither logical nor political, and I can think of few things as Christian as pushing through a historical trauma and finding Christ in...gasp....forgiving your former (or heck, current) enemy! This is the essence of Christianity.
"Take up your cross," even if your cross means getting over your historical prejudices.
Are there not Bosnians and Croatians who converted to Orthodoxy within the Patriarchate of Serbia? Is this not the living out of the Gospel?
No one said go back to Mother Russia. We said schismatics must return from the Church they departed. When you break off from a family, you don't make amends by trying to subtly get into the larger family and snub the immediate one.
DeleteThey should return to the UOC with Met. Onufry just as the Macedonians should go with the Serbians, etc.
And then some will say the UOC IS Russian but they are an autonomous Church and as such don't have such a dependency as most are claiming.