Update: Several people asked for more background on this story. As you might expect, it's not the top item in the Orthodox Observer. Additionally, I have found no "neutral" journalistic sources either. Still, if you'd like more information than the below provides, you can read it here.
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Not really true unless the baby is somehow openly gay :-)
ReplyDeleteBut it certainly looks like the Archbishop is trying to make a statement here. His indifference to conciliarity seems to get more glaring with each new decision.
Did he get permission from local bishop? Did he think this would not cause a scene? Does he WANT it to cause a scene? He has gone so far afield of his predecessors that I have no idea what he'll do next or what the popular response will be.
DeleteMaybe he's thinking "Let's just get that schism done" so he can move on to whatever comes after that?
DeleteEven more interesting that the local bishop is an expert on bioethics.
DeleteSo the two men holding the babies are the "gay" couple, and the two babies are adopted and/or surrogated to them such that they are their legal and "spiritual" guardians? Were the "gay" men the parents at the sacrament, and are they communing members "in good standing" of a GOA church?
ReplyDeleteThis is a hard/red/non-negotiable line in the sand for me, as I am a western man (last stop before Orthodoxy in the 1990's being Episcopal church, etc.) and know full well what this means. If EP/GOA (same thing) is backdooring the sexual/anthropological/Cartesian revolution, willfully or in ignorance, I can not in good conscious be a communing member of any "jurisdiction" that is in communion with them. For the record I am UOC-USA.
Edit: I see in the title that this took place in Athens Greece?!? This is all clear as mud - anyone have a link to something that contextualizes this better?
ReplyDeleteGood God. What is wrong with our hierarchs??? Have they lost their minds???
ReplyDeleteWhile the Archbishop may think of himself as Orthodox, clearly he is not.
ReplyDeleteSo, would it be preferable for the babies to be *unbaptised* and to be raised *outside* the Church? Is it not the responsibility of the sponsor (jewelry-designer Eugenie Niarchos) to ensure that the children are brought up in Orthodoxy? Why not pray for the newly baptised Alexios and Eleni and their sponsor instead of griping about an arguably justifiable pastoral decision by Abp. Elpidophoros? (To be clear, I still consider Elpidophoros an heresiarch for other reasons--pray for him, too, and for Peter Dundas and Evangelo Bousis, the legal parents.) --Dionysius Redington
ReplyDeleteBaptism in particular, the Sacraments in general, and the Church are not magic or some kind of *Ideal objectivism*. Simply because a baby is baptized does not mean *ontologically* that they are "in" the Church as if by some kind of metaphysical necessity, as if their formation by their parents and the future is an irrelevancy .
DeleteParents - in this case the very disordered home of two "gay" men raising them - are much more relevant to the formation of their belief and virtue than any "sponsor", particularly in todays non-village culture/economy/schooling etc. circumstances.
These facts and more make a modern "we have to recognize the winds of the culture and adjust accordingly" argument for this "pastoral" decision (if it was that) a poor one, one that the western protestants and (to a lessor extant perhaps) Roman Catholics have already tried and shown to be a failure path. It also really really strains the basic anthropological and moral Tradition itself, to the breaking point really.
Simply praying "well, I hope the 'sponsor' can form them in into the Church against these odds" is, I would argue, the definition of praying in vain.
I don't think you really believe that living among (or even being raised by) sinners invalidates the Mystery of Baptism, nor that praying against long odds is the definition of praying in vain. --Dionysius Redington
DeleteI agree with Dionysius, this unfortunately sounds pretty typical situation I have seen of nominal Orthodox wanting hatch-match-dispatch and trying to balance seriousness of act with pastoral/missionary needs that the opportunity provides. Not sure the right situation here but despite the twitter post, it seems like it was a target private affair church wise and not a commentary on anything. Note that I have second hand accounts of Russian bishops/priests being put in similar difficult positions with Russian Mafia (not homosexuality but even worse sins by those individuals).
DeleteI have been at a baptism where both parents were atheists but nominally Orthodox, it's a tough call with a lot of hope and prayer. I have seen refusal being a crises that leads to reaffirmation, but also drive away. I have seen agreeing to the sacrament as probably completly marginalized by family (and as far as I'm aware the kids are not going to church as adults ) and at other times forcing some catechism and a sermon that eventually brought the family to church.
DeleteMichael, how would a sound bite catechism (assuming AB Elpidophoros, flown in special, spent an hour or two with these gay men) and a sermon counter the catechizing/evangelizing - the *reformation* - these gay men are foisting upon the church?? As they explicitly say:
Delete"...his Eminence pushing for change...with love and no judgement..."
The collapse of Christendom in both West and East, the utter triumph of this Cartesian theology (outside & inside the Church!) is evidence that this is not a mere case of two "nominal" 'gay' men and their $rich$ parents having wondered from the Church, but them actively, consciously, and explicitly undermining/reforming the Church into a diabolical image, in this case with a false theological anthropology.
As far as prayer, it is only Christian prayer when it is a prayer in love and *truth*. Everyday we say "...grant their requests that are unto salvation and life everlasting..." . Prayer is not optimistic thinking, wishful thinking, an expression of "well intentioned" Universalism and selfishness. There is a false prayer - a prayer to idol(s), prayers for the mere fulfillment of desire: "...take this cup from me, but not *my* will buy *yours*..."
BUT....
Maybe the Sacraments and prayer really are an incantation of the will's "good intentions" , an in-to-outer path of our desire, a kind of bargaining with God. Maybe I should pray to win the lottery, as the odds are against me - especially since I don't ever buy a ticket!
As far as the Church and her Sacraments, perhaps the Church should have "open communion", after all it is would be an opportunity to "reach out" to those who are lost. Heck, we could even have the baptismal waters & the Body and Blood placed on airplanes are released over our cities every Sunday, after all the Spirit blows where He will and who are we to judge...He is a gift, who are we in the Church to withhold him from everyone??...
Sarcasm aside, prayer and Sacrament is only formative when done in *truth*. This is not a flavor Donatism. Sacrament and prayer unconnected to, and in this case done in explicit denial, of truth is a Peligian incantation at best, and in here a triumph of Cartesian theology...
Jake, fair comment how this situation may be different. I don't know as I want there, but it certainly looks like it wasn't the case. The rest of your comment is unfair.
DeleteI did not say anything you are suggesting. As i said, 1. It's hard to know people hearts and even harder as a priest to discern 2. I have seen both paths work or backfire 3. In this case it is nominal parents bringing there innocent kids for baptism which is the case I bring up. (One that I suspect happens multiple times a week in the old countries as much as here). In this case even Orthodox apologists defend infant baptism and the fact that it's a beginning not an absolute and will be up to the kids to accept our reject their calling. In most countries they have leaned to baptize note often then reject (whether wrongly or not.) In the past I have seen this be the moment of have, I can sure an example of a priest baptized by his grandmother in secret from the parents that he felt God's grace in. 4. I did not extend this to other instances though funeral is another tough one. At no point did I advocate open sacraments, just that in these circumstances sometime it's a bit of leaving it to God's hands. Almost every priest has crises about this discernment and has to eventually make the hard decision. I don't know what the AB knew or didn't, what the grandparents and sponsors are like, I just don't know. It could be that money and power talked, I don't know
Delete*moment of grace, I can think of an example
DeleteAlso Mr. Redington, could you provide a link to where you found these persons names, positions, etc.?
ReplyDeleteEdit: after Googling the names Mr. Redington provides, I see the daughters and "gay" sons of billionaires are involved, so AB Elpidophoros is involved in the an all too typical $wordliness$ here. Also I thank our host for linking the "heleniscope" source...
ReplyDeleteThe word "billionaire" in the linked article might clarify some things.
ReplyDeleteSingle people are legally allowed to adopt children, and there is no prohibition in the Church against baptizing a child that only has one parent, either only a dad or only a mother. I've known more than a few instances of this.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the single parent is not even that much of a church goer. In that case, it's probably the grandparents that are pushing for the baptism. That seems to be a valid consideration, and in this particular instance with Archbishop Elpidophorus, it seems that the Orthodox grandparents are the driving force behind this baptism.
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DeleteGoing to call your reasoning out for what it is: diabolic weasel words.
DeleteSo basically, "gay" men are really just "single" - their explicit embracing of homosexualism (which itself is the affirmation of sin as virtue) is just something to overlook "economically" in a "pastoral" mode, and the symbolic "progress" that these gay men claim is nominal. Most importantly it is the good intentions of the $billionare$ grandparents that really matter, and surely the Holy Spirit blesses good intentions no matter the truth of the sexual/moral matter because after all, what is truth?...
Jake, you can't discount the good intentions and drive of the grandparents in this equation. There's also male and female godparents involved. Parents themselves are sometimes flakey. So what often happens when two teenage kids have a baby? Hopefully there's a wider net in the Church that protects them. We are against abortion after all.
DeleteIf the grandparents were serious Orthodox Christian people, they could not be blessing their son's marriage in the first place. Too harsh, you say? Didn't Our Saviour say that those who love family more than Him are not worthy of Him? My own father was baptized Orthodox in Russia. He chose to be cremated, after not having communed in sixty years. When he died, I could not give him an Orthodox funeral.
DeleteBoris, neither the church nor I believe these grandparents are blessing the "marriage" of these two men. As with fourth marriages, the church won't bless them. It's not possible. Yet that shouldn't necessarily preclude children of marriages not blessed in the church from being baptized, that is if there is shown a feasible way of raising them in the church. I believe there is enough support from the Bousis family to raise these kids in the church.
DeleteJoseph, why do you believe what you believe? In these links the "gay" men and their family who have spoken (the "gay" man's brother, the "sponsors", etc.) and they are explicit evangelizers for a secular anthropology and the *reformation* of the Church's theological anthropology.
DeleteCan you cite where the grandparents have explicitly refuted the secular beliefs/evangelization of their children? If you can not, can you explain why you believe they do not hold to these anti-Christian beliefs and are in fact trying to counter this diabolical philosophy and not merely trying to hold an ethnic family/culture "together"?
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DeleteThere are two conversations going on here, one about pastoral matters, one about what message Abp. E. was trying to send. In my former parish, we had a baptism of the child of a single mother who was alienated from the Church. Grandparents were very involved in church and in the child's upbringing. I didn't question the priest's decision, and I'm sure priests deal with situations like this all the time. But I can't make myself believe that Abp. E was just exercising a little *economia* here: everything about it seems set up to push "inclusion" of homosexual practice. Unless His Eminence was being gullible, which I doubt.
ReplyDeleteThe Greeks are more and more looking like the Byzantine Rite of the Episcopal Church.
ReplyDeleteThere is much truth of course in this quip, one I have used many times. Yet this event in Athens has me thinking of my time in the Episcopal church, it's history as part of the Reformation, even bishop Pike and his friend Phillip K. Dick. I'm now struck more by the differences between the path of the Episcopal church and the path of so many (GOA in particularly) immigrant Orthodox within western euro/NA civilization. The secularization of these immigrants and their culture is it's own tragic history and flavor
DeletePerhaps something like the following will hint at what I mean:
https://www.nytimes.com/1976/08/01/archives/the-death-and-life-of-bishop-pike-looking-for-god-in-the-wrong.html
Jake is right to point out the awful effect of Pike on his church organization. For all episcopalians the "ancient" church has to refer to nothing older than the Johnson administration and the age of James Pike. An apostate and his church was utterly helpless to correct or remove him, he finally quit his job and blundered into a sad death in the Judean desert nearly taking his THIRD wife with him. The Greeks and other overseas Orthodox organizations are experts at finding utterly talentless men whose only ability is being a bachelor. They seem always to be PhD's from Geneva, Oxford or the GTU in Berkeley and make the Church cringe. No one stops them. The current archbisop Elpi is like his previous office holders a graduate of the sad little thing called Halki. All Orthodox should be most grateful to the Turkish government for shutting down that school, perhaps stemming the tide of minds like Elpi, Demetrios and Spiridon. We need all the help we can get. Remember, Elpi's previous job was "headmaster" of Halki, which of course has had zero students for decades. Like being the lifeguard at a dry riverbed. The Greeks do this with a straight face. That's the problem.
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