The Serbian Church has not been overly sanguine about either Ukraine or recent Constantinopolitan claims on the EP's role and powers in the Orthodoxy. And I don't mean silently stewing. I mean vocally and unequivocally.
(Orthodox Times) - Representatives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate visited today Belgrade in order to hold talks on Orthodox issues with Patriarch Irinej and the hierarchs of the Church of Serbia.
Some of the representatives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate were Metropolitans John of Pergamon, Emmanuel of France, Maximos of Silivri, Amphilochios of Adrianople, and Deputy Secretary of the Holy Synod, Grigorios.
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One wonders what would happen if, say, a priest in ROCOR or the Serbian Church responded to his own bishop or primate with the kind of language we've heard from these same clergy about the EP? Primacy seems to stop at the boundary of the diocese or, at a stretch, the national church.
ReplyDeleteFr. Gregory,
DeleteThe nature of the primacy of a bishop relative to his clergy is entirely different than the primacy that exists among bishops.
The former is a sacramental/mystical primacy while the latter is merely a pragmatic primacy for the purposes of administrative practicality.
Conflating these two types of primacy is not only unhelpful it's actually counterproductive.
Yes, the relationship between a bishop and his clergy are different than that which is between bishops. But this isn't really the point.
DeleteThe fact is that any number of Orthodox clergy--and not a few lay people--seem comfortable making comments about the EP that they would never make to their own bishops.
True, and in response I've cut & pasted Isa Almisry's 10/27/19 response on this thread:
Delete"Depends - is the bishop / primate a schismatic and heretic?"
Fr. Gregory,
DeleteOur bishops don't go around claiming to be first without equals. A question for you, and an host one and I'm not trying to be snarky: how do you square the fact your Patriarch concellebrate with people who are not ordained? How is that remotely acceptable?
Why, the Patriarch used his reset button. Didn't you know that?
Delete"...any number of Orthodox clergy--and not a few lay people--seem comfortable making comments about the EP that they would never make to their own bishops."
DeleteThey are simple categorical, linear thinkers. They have been led to a determination (by the MP's propaganda - they certainly did not come to it themselves) that "The EP is a schismatic/heretic" and then A+B=C. It gives them a thrill, and "pricks" their inner self righteous man-child, not that there is any manliness in it really. It's a kind of intellectual masturbation, and obviously has nothing to do with actually loving your neighbor...
"They are simple categorical, linear thinkers...followed by colorful rhetorical insults."
DeleteJake, thanks for showing us your hand. These are signs of authentic hubris & anti-intellectualism...when you can't or won't bother to offer a respectful, factual & logical rebuttal then, of course, resorting to simple ad hominem attacks is considered sufficient.
Last I knew that was fundamentalism disguised as open-minded tolerance...until someone has a different point of view then hit the "red button" to launch character assassination torpedos.
This is my cue to sign off. No point attempting to have a reasonable conversation of someone who rejects reason & respectfulness. Godspeed.
Fact: all you amateur canon lawyers have no facts, you have propaganda which is opinion masquerading as fact.
DeleteFact: you mistake propaganda as fact, and when this is pointed out you strangely call this "anti-intellectualism".
Fact: none of you can engage any of the dimensions of the situation beyond what you have been led to believe is the "canonical" one.
Fact: You're trapped in your own "logic", even though it's Christianity 101 that life, the church, humanity, and God are not logical legal problems.
Fact: Anyone who disagrees with Jake is an amateur canon lawyer beguiled by Moscow Patriarchate propaganda incapable of thinking for themselves and unable to grasp the complexities of the situation as well as being incapable of authentic Christian love.
DeleteWell said, sir! You're a true genius & modern-day Cappadoican!
I humbly bow to you & your irrefutable position. You must glow in the dark when you pray.
Ah, I'd love to see a transcript of disagreements between Jake & his wife. That would be entertaining, indeed : )
My father always said sarcastically, "Don't try to confuse me with the facts! I've already go my mind made up." Other times he'd say, "A wise man will change his mind in the presence of facts."
DeleteThankfully with Jake there's no need for dialogue. He's lovingly abolished the need for discourse. All others need to do is accept everything he says because any other position is sheer foolishness. Jake is just like Patriarch Bartholomew!
Don't worry Timmy. Jake will be okay. I sold him my beat up '99 Civic yesterday. 😁
Delete"I sold him my beat up '99 Civic yesterday. 😁"
DeleteLOL! Mikail, I am going to have to return it...It does not have a "flame job" ;)
Sorry. All sales are final.
DeleteHa! As a formal trad catholic I thought you might be amiable to getting out of purgatory...eventually... ;) Ah well, Hell is as Hell does :)
DeleteFormal....or former?
Deleteformer...though you are a formal prooftexter...we never leave your roots behind do we ;)
DeleteI am a part-time editor. I can't help it.
DeleteSt. Mark of Ephesus might be able to help you.
DeleteSt. Mark of Ephesus pray for us!
DeleteCue the EP recognizing the Macedonian schismatics in 3..2..
ReplyDeleteWhat we have learned from the EP is that he indeed seems to be petty if he is challenged or stood up to. I fully expect the Serbians to rebuke him (as they should), and in turn, I'm almost certain that Patriarch Bartholomew will pull the same stunt in Macedonia that he has in Ukraine
DeleteNot that we know the U.S government is involved, EPB's actions should be clear for everyone to see and quite predictable
Menas,
DeleteUnfortunately, to date we have good reasons to believe that your prediction may very well & sadly, I might add, come to fruition.
Time will tell...
It surely ought to happen (WHY is a whole nation out of communion because the Pech Patriarchate can't accept that they're not Serbian?), but does anyone really think the 'Macedonia Is Greek Forever' people are going to recognize the autocephaly of the Church of Ohrid? They're the ones that suppressed it in the first place when the Ottomans finally allowed them to...
DeleteBartholomew's actions are what we should be discussing; what are it's fruits? Certain not unity.
Delete"One wonders what would happen if, say, a priest in ROCOR or the Serbian Church responded to his own bishop or primate with the kind of language we've heard from these same clergy about the EP?"
ReplyDeleteDepends-is the bishop/primate a schismatic and heretic?
"Nice Church you have there, Serbia. It would be a shame if something happened to it."
ReplyDeleteExactly!
DeleteHowever, the Serbs are no-nonsense folks who don't mince their words or pull any punches so that wouldn't go well for the EP.
Then again the EP isn't in the business of making sound decisions lately.
Time will tell...
Yet the Serbians and the Greeks are like two lungs of the same organism.
DeleteI think the "two lungs of the same organism" analogy stretches the limits of credibility given the fact that:
Delete1) Serbia long ago articulated its firm stance stance against the OCU & the EP's non-role in Ukraine and their firm support for the UOC
2) their unique histories
3) their very different autocephalous statuses (Greece's really being more of a hybrid between autonomy & autocephaly and Serbia have full autocephaly).
In your response Timmy, even though you start an end from a seemingly "canonical" perspective, the Church, the very Body of Christ as a human reality breaks through. Just to be clear, you believe that the Serbian Church with its own culture, language, and nation state engenders autocephaly, where as the Ukrainian Church with its own culture, language, and nation state engenders...what... ontologyy as a living relic/symbol of the Russian mythology...a kind of zoo people?
DeleteThe issue is not whether or not Ukraine hypothetically should have autocephaly or not, something that many anti-schismatic "OCU" voices support, such as the church of Poland. The issue is how this particular process was handled by the EP, how the "autocephaly" was granted, and to whom.
DeleteAlso, just something to keep in mind when talking about this stuff, St. Lawrence of Chernigov specifically said that the separation of Ukraine from it's common history with Russia is a (using his language) demonic practice, and that any attempt to give "autocephaly" or independence to the church of Ukraine is (once again to use his language) of the devil. Take that as you will
http://orthochristian.com/77399.html
St. Lawrence used extremely polemical language, as many saints do, but his words always seem to come to my mind when discussing Ukraine:
Delete"At these words, Batiushka said a prayer for all who have gone astray from or renounced Orthodoxy; he began to cry and said, “No, the Lord will not call them to repentance, they will not be saved, for they are unworthy of God’s mercy. This was revealed to me by the Queen of Heaven and my holy Guardian Angel.” Batiushka testified: “The Queen of Heaven has appeared to me several times, has visited me both by Herself, and with the Archangels Michael and Gabriel.” “In those who have gone astray from and have renounced the True Faith20 there is no salvation or receiving of the Kingdom of Heaven. We, the Orthodox, do not need anything—only the Orthodox Faith, the salvation of our souls, and to receive the Kingdom of Heaven. And we have all this in our Mother, the Russian Orthodox Church. Thanks be to God! But to break off from it and leave it is the greatest sin, which is unforgivable both in this life and in the life to come—it is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.”
And at this Batiushka lit up with a light not of this world, finishing his conversation with the words, "Hear thou and see!" as the Holy Evangelist says, and added: "They will be deaf and blind!"
Jake,
DeleteLike the Churches of Poland & Cyprus have said (and I agree) Ukraine has a right to be an autocephalous Church under the right circumstances, i.e., they collectively desire & request it, which hasn't happened.
I'm not at all opposed to Ukraine being autocephalous. However, to date a minority group of defrocked, excommunicated, anathematized, schismatics who have shown no repentance & make up less than 25% of the Ukrainian population (the other 75% being the UOC) have requested it, and the means of the EP's "creative" intervention in Ukraine defy logic & historical reality. I think this opposition is not merely "canonical" but also theological & practical. This is my objection to the so-call autocephaly in Ukraine as it currently stands.
Conversely, I don't think it would benefit every nation that has it unique culture & language to have its own autocephalous Church or else the Patriarchate of Alexandria would be divide up in ways that are impractical. On the other hand, the US would likely (I suspect...maybe) do well to have an autocephalous Church.
At any rate, we're two laymen, and the bishops will work this out. Afterwards we can add our collective lay support or rejection of it. You & I are a couple of "armchair theologians". I'm a lousy sinner & ask that you remember me in your prayers.
Randy and Timmy,
DeleteYou both say too much to unpack easily, but your information source(s) for your opinions is essentially Russian biased - more than biased, it is in truth propaganda. In a sense your simply 'choosing sides' in the normal ethno-national-give-and-take of this ethno-national Church of the East. Your doing this from your NA armchair, and convincing yourself that your "theology" is somehow relevant - or even real theology! You even claim to know what is "practical" in Africa!! Your being quite silly. Sorry if this offends, but there is no other way to put it.
This ain't no Indonesian site. Take that mess somewhere else!
ReplyDeleteSeems like there are lots of these bots that frequent blogspot.com and post advertisements. Probably would be best to just ban them, but they'll probably just come back on a different account.
Delete