Moscow, November 8 (Interfax) - The recognition of the new "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" (OCU) by Greek Orthodox Patriarch Theodore II of Alexandria and All Africa makes it impossible for Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia to commemorate his name during services, the Moscow Patriarchate said.
"The Russian Orthodox Church is deeply saddened by the reports on Patriarch Theodore of Alexandria's decision to recognize Yepifaniy Dumenko as the leader of the 'Orthodox Church of Ukraine' and commemorate his name in the Church of Alexandria's diptychs. This means that the name of the Patriarch of Alexandria can no longer be commemorated during patriarchal services in the Russian Orthodox Church," Deputy Chairman of the Synodal Department for External Church Relations Archpriest Nikolay Balashov told Interfax on Friday.
Friday, November 8, 2019
Moscow strikes third Primate from commemorations
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Patriarch Theodore looked like a broken man.
ReplyDeleteIt has always been clear that with rare exceptions, Greeks side with Greeks. I have family friends in Greece, having lived there, and I love the Greeks, but when push comes to shove blood is thicker than anything else to Greeks, including faith or dogma.
ReplyDeleteSo although its sad, this outcome is not even slightly surprising, yet another Greek church siding with the head of the Greeks.
In spite of that, I don’t think you can downplay the significance of how irregular this situation is.
As a prospective priest, not under the MP or ROCOR, i’m not alone in saying that I will never concelebrate with the OCU or those who have. I really don’t care about the Greek vs Russians angle, I recognize it, I’m saddened by it, but if the tables were reversed, if Russia was granting autocephaly to Old Calendarist schismatics in Greece who were defrocked and or self-ordained, against the direct wishes of the church of Greece, I would never go along with that or pretend that the passage of time could somehow make it irrelevant.
Now i’m not pretending that my voice matters in any of this, but I just think you should realize that hoping that this is ‘just’ Russians being evil/ignorant/political/controlling or any other convenient label, will not make this issue disappear.
I fully expect most if not all of the Greek churches to join EPB and for this to boil down to Slavs vs Greeks, but I still fully believe that a council is the only solution other than repentance on the part of the schismatics.
There are schismatic groups all over the world who refuse to reconcile with their mother Churches for various complex reasons. Why is this a special case?
ReplyDeleteThe Non Chalcedonians for example are a far larger group than the OCU, and have existed outside the Church for quite some time.
Your argument seems to imply that if EPB were to bring them back into communion, with no repentance or change, for /pastoral/ reasons, it would trump everything else. Love is not a valid excuse for ignoring truth.
I have no quarrel with the laity in the OCU, for starters its very unclear exactly how many of them even exist, what they believe, or what their knowledge of the history/situation is. So I won't attempt to speak for them or judge them.
However even giving every member of the laity the benefit of the doubt, that they are innocent sheep caught in terrible circumstances.
What of the leadership?
Can men become self made bishops? Can excommunicated, defrocked, clergy serve in the church?
Are we just going to ignore that Philaret has already broken away into yet another schism? (Perhaps the greatest example of why without repentance, even a rubber stamp and a free pass doesnt last or have effect)
I'll grant you, if you genuinely believed the USSR was alive and well in Russia and that the Church was not free, it would be a difficult situation. But the leadership of the OCU didnt break away out of fear of communism or "Putinism". Philaret broke away because he didnt get to be Patriarch, so he made himself "patriarch" and bought himself the hat to match. Then he found other men who wanted power and "ordained" them, including the current head of the "OCU".
The fact that they have used ethnic and political issues to bolster their ranks doesnt give them validity. "The whole world groaned under Arianism" but St. Maximos made no compromise of the truth for the sake of "pastoral concern" for the countless Arians.
Lets be honest, reconciliation is only difficult for the self made men who dont want to give up their titles.
The majority of the Ukrainians dont want autocephaly, they haven't accepted it and they never asked for it. All the same I'd have no problem with Met. Onuphry becoming the head of a legitimate autocephalous church, however in the presence of a legitimate and independent Ukrainian church, do you think for one minute that the schismatic clergy would be interested in joining if it meant giving up power?
Clearly the answer is no, because Philaret has already shown that even "autocephaly" is not enough for him. Tho to be fair to him, the terms of their "autocephaly" make them less independent than the autonomous Ukrainian church under Met. Onuphry. The schismatics are completely beholden to Constantinople under their deal.
Anyways I haven't slept, apologies if I didnt make a clear response.
David, you're dreaming. The Russians play the long game, always have, always will. And I'm Greek, 100%.
ReplyDeleteBartholomew and whoever else sides with him will be in schism. Even Arb Anastasios of Albania said this.
David has not met priests from the Uktraine who have suffered at the hands of the OCU. I have. The OCU is not some sort of wimpy persecuted minority. They are the persecutors. David can spout all the fancy arguments he wants. What Bartholomew did was malicious and a raw power grab.
Delete"...David can spout all the fancy arguments he wants...."
DeleteIn other words, don't bother me with the truth - a simplistic propaganda narrative is all I need to know ;)
@David
Delete"...Let them go..." no one is stopping the OCU from playing church. If they want to go off and do that it's on them. The problem is they are demanding legitimacy that self ordination cannot bring. If Bartholemew ordains them THEN we have a territorial dispute. Until then you sir are perpetrating schism.
"I would beg the Moscow Patriarchate to not do this anymore and talk with their brother bishops."
ReplyDeleteI would beg Bartholomew to end his ego trip and return to Orthodoxy. He has recognized a group of laymen pretending to be hierarchs in a make-believe Church. He has thrust himself into schism and is dragging other hierarchs into the abyss with him. He is smashing the entire Orthodox Church to pieces. I used to think that Metaxakis was one of the worst EP's to ever rule in Istanbul. This man beats them all!
Hey Dave,
DeleteYou may want to go ahead and joint one of the uniate formations...because that is where you are headed anyway. I will stay with the canonical Orthodox Church. It may be smaller, but it will remain Christ's true Church. 😉
Yes. That is what I thought. Your posts make perfect sense to me now. You will not be in the Canonical Church. You will be a uniate in disguise...a prenteder like the OCU make-believe "hierarchs" and "clergy".
DeleteAnd you have not read a word that I have said. It is your prerogative to respond with fart can jokes. And if you do, then I will stop responding to you also...because at that point...it is evident that you have nothing to say.
DeleteAll people are my brothers and sisters...but there is only One Church, One Baptism. I am already familiar with the man who has claimed to be first without equals since Pius IX jammed it through in 1854. Now there is another claiming the same authority and I want no part of it.
You are completely wrong David. I am not Russian...nor part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I see a Patriarch (EP) who is out of control. I see a group of unrepentant schismatics persecuting pious Christians. It is not that my heart is hardened....it is that my conscience is properly formed.
DeleteThe OCU schismatics can return to the canonical Church where the vast majority of their brothers and sisters reside. To hold on to the anti-Russian hatred means they are the ones with hardened hearts.
Wrong again David. The Russian Orthodox Church is a canonical Church of God. They are not communists and they are not liquidating families. I know people who are Ukrainian uniates. They are of one mind with the OCU schismatics. They are nationalists. There is even fascist symbolism in their icons. They did not need another "Church." They have a beautiful canonical Church with more freedom than this pseudo autocephaly they received from Bartholomew. There is a holy man by the name of Metropolitan Onufriy who will care deeply for them and lead them to the Kingdom of Heaven. No David...I am not buying into any of your (or Bartholomew's) anti-Russia propaganda. And yes David, I pin all of this chaos on Bartholomew.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThere is one way to solve the problem, David. Do away with the pseudo-autocephalous OCU. Let the people gently return to the Omophorion of a man of deep faith and genuine holiness, Metropolitan Onufriy. If the Hierarchs and clergy choose to repent and return to the Church, God forgives and will have mercy.
DeleteThere...I solved it for you. It is really quite simple
I think ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’ definitely applies here, although there is certainly a difference between the (very real problem of) accepting of sanctioned individuals by almost all jurisdictions (pick two jurisdictions that have strained relations and you’ll find priest swapping has occurred, perhaps most identifiably here in America where everything is disorderly).
ReplyDeleteThat’s a far cry from what has happened in Ukraine. I can’t speak for why Russia didn’t go to war over the Ukrainians in America, one could easily point out that you have to pick your battles, and America is already a territorial nightmare.
However I can point out and say that EPB didn’t set up an Autocephalous church in America consisting of defrocked and excommunicated clergy, against the direct wishes of the reigning bishops. I think Russia would have made a fuss about that all things considered.
It might be a tad polemical of me, but I can’t help but notice the irony that all “pastoral” care for Philaret is absent in your statement. Why can you ignore that he has a large group of people who don’t trust EPB or Moscow, and that pastorally someone should grant him autocephaly so that he can be patriarch?
“Philaret is no longer a factor. He made his choice, and will have to answer for it before God.” That’s a very cold indifference to have towards a large group of Ukrainians wouldn’t you say? That sounds very “Russian” by your standards. Why is he no longer of concern?
I pointed out the Non Chalcedonians, because they are a classic example of how schismatics, no matter how large in number they may be or how long they have been out of communion, don’t just get a free pass for “pastoral” reasons. Many would make the argument that the Non Chalcedonians, specifically the Malankarans and Coptics for example, have nearly identical if not identical faith to us, yet without a council it would be absurd for them to be brought back in on the whim of a single bishop and without specific repentance.
You want a magic solution for reconciliation or else the only option in your mind is to grant schismatics their own church. That’s not how the Church works. You can’t force people to repent, you cant force people to accept the church, and you don’t just hand out autocephaly whenever there’s a group of defrocked clergy who don’t want to repent and give up the ranks they are no longer worthy of.
If they think that Russia is not a valid church, that’s a serious claim. You’re saying that the largest Orthodox population in the world is under a false church; which goes on to imply no one should be in communion with Russia.
So at the end of the day, either the Ukrainians who believe what you’re saying are right, and Russia is a false church, something horrifying to consider, or they’re wrong and their choice is being made for the wrong reasons, which we can’t force them to change but we also can’t accept just because they feel that way.
Also you just stated that going into schism for non religious reasons is acceptable. “The hardline autocephalists could not accept this, and so went into schism”. How can that be acceptable? It also ignores the well documented history of Philaret who is the pioneer of the OCU, the man he “ordained” his protege is the current head of the OCU, and his reasons for forming it were not sincere in the least.
Should America go into schism until it is granted a fully recognized Autocephaly? Is that how the church works now? Under this reasoning, I could break away from my church tomorrow, make myself patriarch, make a bunch of my friends bishops, gather a lot of people under me and then say that I had no choice but to go into schism because I don’t trust the Slavs and the Greeks, after all they’re just puppets to the E.U and Putin, and I’ll just remain in schism until I can work out a deal with a friendly patriarch.
Ridiculous? Well that’s exactly what happened in Ukraine.
Well David, you make your point. I don’t know that I agree with the conclusion, but I see where you’re coming from. I can’t side with EPB, and I can’t acknowledge the OCU without a council first addressing the nature of acceptance of excommunicated and defrocked clergy by a foreign bishop over and against the will of those who administered the canonical punishments. I’m not even saying that they can’t be accepted theoretically, as clergy, under the right circumstances, but I know enough about Orthodoxy to know that repentance is essential to everything and those without it end up like Philaret.
ReplyDeleteYou will know a tree by its fruits, and so far the fruit of this OCU’s creation has been highly negative and only stands to get worse as the Slavs and the Greeks continue to draw lines in the sand. It didn’t bring unity to the Ukrainians, it just pitted Ukrainians against Ukrainians and allowed geo-political factions to support their respective sides.
That being said, the situation was complicated and difficult before, its even more complicated and more difficult now, but I understand how having desired for there to be a solution, people could support what they believe to be a solution i.e EPB doing what he is doing. I just think that if you wanted a solution, this was not the way to go about it. EPB could have taken a more diplomatic approach, he could have been the one to call for a council to discuss this in the first place, and then either a council would have decided what to do, or Russia would have refused to participate and at least then he would have the moral high ground of saying he tried to use the conciliar method before acting unilaterally.
Mostly I’m just sad because as I was discussing with a friend today, never mind that we have a huge schism brewing, never mind that we can’t concelebrate with our friends and family depending on their jurisdiction; how are we supposed to evangelize and bring people to the true faith, and declare that we believe in One Holy, catholic, and Apostolic Church; when the Slavs and the Greeks are tearing said church to ribbons in the background? It’s quite discouraging, the equivalent to inviting a friend to a family gathering and the two drunk uncles are fighting. A sign of the times perhaps, not to say that people wont continue to join the Church, but we are our own worst enemies when it comes to promoting Orthodoxy.
"The MP has to accept the OCU as a reality."
ReplyDeleteLOL! That is quite humorous! What would ever make you think they would accept a group of unrepentant schismatics who play pretend in their make-believe "church"?
You are a real card, Dave. 😁
It goes like this: Do the people of Ukraine have a canonical Church to attend with good priests and holy hierarchs who care for the salvation of their souls? Yes, the UOC. Is the Metropolitan of this Church competent? Yes. In fact, he is one of the most pious and caring shepherds on this Earth. But....if the people are looking for a nationalistic organization with unordained schismatics as clergy...where they are raiding the canonical Churches and beating their clergy and parishioners...then they do not have a Church at all. In fact, they are not even Christians. Bartholomew decided to normalize this abomination that mocks Christ's Holy Church. Lord have mercy on his soul.
ReplyDelete"...unordained schismatics...they do not have a Church at all...they are not even Christians...abomination...mocks..."
DeleteAnother day, another repetition of a (seemingly logical) propaganda narrative which is a fantasy in the mind some NA convert who believe his salvation has something to do with a fantasy of legal perfection this side of the Eschaton which he actually thinks exists in Moscow. Now THAT is a "heresy" if there ever was one!
And the fart can blows
phhheeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....pppplllpplopllpllppsssssss...brrrrrpppppppprrrrrppppppppp....
No Jake. You are spreading lies and propaganda. Try meeting some people who know the OCU and have experienced persecution from them first hand.
Delete"how are we supposed to evangelize and bring people to the true faith, and declare that we believe in One Holy, catholic, and Apostolic Church; when the Slavs and the Greeks are tearing said church to ribbons in the background?"
ReplyDeleteAmen, amen, amen!
Sojourner,
ReplyDeleteI would note that your evaluation of the ecclesiastical (and not I don't mean just bishops) is too shallow. The details of the 1990's through today rest on a the last 100 years, and those 100 years rest on 800 years. In a real sense, your like a man discussing the latest race row in NA while ignoring the 60's, act of 64, jim crow, reconstruction, civil war, slavery, etc. etc.
Also, what exactly does the age old (its literally 500 or more years old - a quarter of Christian history) cultural divide between the Greeks and Slavs have to do with evangelizing a culture such as NA?!? I agree with you, we are "our own worst enemies". One way we defeat ourselves is focusing on the unimportant such as these meta-ecclesiastical questions that almost NO ONE in NA are even aware exist, let alone are important. 99.999999% of them EXPECT it to be exactly so, coming from Protestant or counter-reformation RCism.
So your upset that you have friends and family whom you can't commune with now. Well cry me a river. As Christ said, even sinners love those who love them. Did this tiny little cross bring you down? Boo hoo hoo. THIS is how your going to account for Orthodoxy's (rather large) failures at even passing the faith on to their children, let alone evangelizing the post-protestant secular culture that surrounds it!? Boo hoo hoo.
Buck up Christian soldier. Try to focus on reality...
You know Jake, I try to have discussions here in good faith. Occasionally I’ll admit I have been polemical, sarcastic or what have you, but if someone raises a valid point I do my best to consider it and respond appropriately. The latest example being that David, who I do not tend to agree with, presented his case of the situation in such a way that although I do not tend to agree with his view or conclusion, I understand what he means and I can respect his point of view.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit that if i’m being 100% honest, I probably know better than to waste my time exchanging opinions on a blog. Probably doesn’t benefit me spiritually or practically, but hey i’m only human and its nice to have a site that revolves around Orthodoxy.
But you don’t argue in good faith, let alone discuss matters respectfully, you seem more than happy to troll from a position of feigned superiority.
It’s a shame because you’re obviously not a complete idiot, contrary to the impressions you give on occasion, and if you have things to contribute i’d be interested in hearing them, but i’m not impressed by arrogance or claims to wisdom made in condescending remarks.
“As Christ said, even sinners love those who love them” Are you serious? You’re saying that I shouldn’t be upset that my friends and family are not in communion, that people are attempting to divide the Body of Christ? Yes even sinners love, but you don’t seem to care about love at all based on your statement. Not to mention using a random quote from the Bible in the wrong context, classic.
“Try to focus on reality...” Like the reality that when potential converts ask me about the differences between “Greek” Orthodoxy and “Russian” Orthodoxy and “American” Orthodoxy, I have to explain that we hold the same faith and are united, while praying they don’t come across the latest news flash of how that unity is sorely lacking in practice at the moment?
In any case, I don’t know why I’m wasting my time responding to you.
You clearly get your kicks by trolling people on here and announcing to everyone that you have far more wisdom and knowledge than them, and that they couldn’t possibly understand what they’re talking about without knowing what you do, because after all anyone who is not Jake is just an ignorant person following propaganda, which thankfully Jake is impervious to having been noetically formed in a vacuum.
"“As Christ said, even sinners love those who love them” Are you serious? You’re saying that I shouldn’t be upset that my friends and family are not in communion, that people are attempting to divide the Body of Christ? "
ReplyDeleteYep, that's what I am saying. Well, its natural to be "upset", but let's not say it is more than it is. Did you notice how Judas was in the very heart of the 12, or how Peter denied our lord? These are but two examples of REALLY being "out of communion"...sort of makes Ukrainian territory and economic (canonical) concerns look trivial. There does not appear to perfection in communion (or any aspect of the Church - it is a human reality after all) this side of the Eschaton.
"the reality that when potential converts ask me about the differences between “Greek” Orthodoxy and “Russian” Orthodoxy and “American” Orthodoxy, I have to explain..."
You can't be serious :) If "potential" converts are getting hung up on the Greek vs. Russian divide, then they never had any real "potential" in the first place, OR Orthodoxy (or your local expression of it) has no real "potential" and life. In either case, good riddance. If your faith is this thin, then as Flannery O'Connor would say "to hell with it".
Who could be saved in a Church and Faith that somehow required the Greeks and the Slavs to get along?!? That ain't the real world, and more importantly it ain't Christianity :)