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Moscow, November 13 (Interfax) - Patriarch Theodoros of Alexandria and the archbishops of the Churches of Alexandria and Cyprus were given envelopes following a liturgy service in Limassol, Cyprus, where Patriarch Theodoros mentioned the head of the so-called Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) Yepifaniy; the envelopes contained letters with pictures of Theodoros and Metropolitan Onufry of Kiev, a fragment of the fresco Kiss of Judas, and the text "Onufry is a metropolitan, Yepifaniy is a schismatic, and Theodoros is a Judas," Orthodox Christian blogger Alexander Voznesensky wrote on Facebook.
"The situation is as follows: Theodoros personally mentioned Yepifaniy in a liturgy in Limassol, despite the requests of the Cypriot clergy. After that, all the bishops and priests received an envelope containing this picture," Voznesensky said.
A senior priest of the Alexandria Patriarchate tore the letter up in the street and Theodoros "escaped to avoid the attention of the crowd." At the same time, according to Voznesensky, many Cypriot priests "said thank you and that everything had been done most correctly, saying they were informed about the problem and did not support Theodoros."
It was reported last week that Patriarch Theodoros, the head of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria, had recognized the OCU, mentioning in a liturgy its leader Yepiphaniy as head of one of the local Orthodox churches.
Archbishop Ieronymos II of Athens and All Greece recognized the OCU in late October, despite opposition from his own bishops.
The patriarch of Alexandria is second in honorific rank after the Constantinople patriarch among representatives of local Orthodox churches. Until recently, Patriarch Theodoros was known as one of the main defenders of canonical Orthodoxy in Ukraine.
The OCU was created in December 2018 with assistance from the Constantinople Patriarchate and the administration of Ukraine, which was then led by Pyotr Poroshenko.
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I suffer from male pattern blindness. Who is Judas/Christ pair in the top photo?
ReplyDeleteThe pair up top is Patriarch Theodoros greeting Metropolitan Onuphrius with a kiss during one of the former's visits to the latter.
DeleteIf you didn't know, Patriarch Theodoros served in Odessa for many years, and less than a year ago he even flew to Odessa, served with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's bishop of Odessa, and spoke very clearly to the people gathered in the cathedral, asking them to be faithful to the canonical Church and declaring that there is only one Metropolitan of Kiev and all Ukraine, and that is Onuphrius of the Moscow Patriarchate.
Regardless of your views on the matter, this looks very inconsistent. To take it upon yourself to fly from Egypt to Ukraine to support the canonical Church only to then change your mind - for me this is difficult to accept.
Let us pray that Theodore repents of his Judas-like betrayal of Metropolitan Onuphriy.
ReplyDelete"...the envelopes contained letters with pictures of Theodoros and Metropolitan Onufry of Kiev, a fragment of the fresco Kiss of Judas, and the text "Onufry is a metropolitan, Yepifaniy is a schismatic, and Theodoros is a Judas..."
ReplyDeleteSo they received anonymous hate mail, indicating an impassioned gurrilla war by the Devil.
So what? It is an indicator that they are doing the right thing or speaking the truth if the Devil is working in this way...
Difficult to accept is an understatement.
ReplyDeleteHyperbole much?
ReplyDeleteThis is beyond the pale, and I say this as one who firmly believes the MP is in the right on this matter (though I do think they were too quick to pull the trigger on breaking communion).
Anyone referring to a Bishop of the Church as Judas because you don't like an action he took needs to seriously re-evaluate what he or she believes.
His actions are Judas-like. He offered his strong support for his good friend Metropolitan Onuphriy...and then stabbed him in the back. However, the Patriarch still has an opportunity to repent...unlike Judas Iscariot.
Delete"...He offered his strong support for his good friend Metropolitan Onuphriy...."
DeleteActually, you don't know that at all, though the MP's propaganda machine (of which you have swallowed hook, line, and sinker) wants you to believe this.
On the surface, which is all that any of us have seen through this whole affair, he was saying what he was supposed to be saing as an (ecclesial) *diplomat*. Beyond this, he could have very well - and current events certainly point to this being the case - working very hard to *support* the EP's and Greeks broad position and canonical interpretation in the Ukraine.
You know Mikail, you still have the opportunity to repent of your hate mailing ways...unlike Judas Iscariot.
PS,
DeleteDear oneofthetwain,
The following link shows you (with video proof) of P. Theodore's great support for the canonical Church and Met. Onuphriy. This makes his back-stab even more painful.
https://spzh.news/en/news/66387-grecheskije-smi-opublikovali-podborku-vyskazyvanij-patriarkha-feodora-ob-upc
I am pleased that there are many Greek laity and clergy who continue to uphold Holy Orthodoxy in Greece by not permitting the schismatics to enter some of the holy sites. I will continue to pray for the repentance of P. Theodore and AB Ieronymos.
@Mikail,
DeleteI get it, I truly do. As I said, I'm in agreement with the MP on the whole situation. It sickens me that dirty politics have tainted our Holy Church (sadly not a new thing at all); and the governments of Greece and the US are sadly likely behind some of this.
However, equating a canonical successor of the Apostles to the son of perdition is outrageous and indefensible.
Moscow is not wrong on the whole situation, but actions of her supporters like this are not going to engender any sympathy, nor is it likely to contribute to a solution.
Yes. The betrayal is very real. The difference is: Judas committed suicide without repenting.
DeleteIt is no worse than the Ukrainian schismatic churches having Nazi symbols in the iconography. If our editor chooses to allow "Jake" to continue posting his BS, it's on him. I won't dialogue with him anymore.
ReplyDeleteAh, so *real* dialogue & disagreement does not sit well with BorisJojicj and Mikail.
DeleteI feel for you, you are used to having it your own way in certain echo chambers.... ;)
In my world of medicine and psychiatry, Jake, we pro-life Christians (Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant) have had to accept the radical in our profession’s ethics and MO from pro-life “do no harm” to the new mentality which now calls our unchanging stance as “hateful.” I see nothing “hateful” in Mikhail’s posts. I do think it is best to call an action by name rather than a person. And the kiss and betrayal of Judas certainly resembles those of former supporters of Met. Onouphry who now harm the Church and her people including the near-Saint himself. As my SF recently said, “Truth and love are innately bonded. If you separate them, you lose them both!” Sadly the actions of Patriarch Bartholomew and his new followers in hierarchy violate both and so the truth must be spoken. I hope you will not speak insultingly to your fellow posters here and call them names when you disagree with them. Many sources other than Russian and many trusted Saints and to-be Saints are in agreement with what is and is not truthful here.
DeleteYou're diagnosis is an error counselor. There is real hate of at a minimum the spiritual and psychosomatic kind. Mikail has explicitly stated that Patriarch Bartholomew is without a "conscious" and that he wishes "flames" upon 6 to 10 million Ukrainian Orthodox who do not wish to submit to the Russian cultural yoke.
DeleteIt does not matter that he is a neophyte who is confusing is ill informed opinions for canonical law, to say nothing of Christian maturity and holiness. Whatever the source of his hate, his hate is laid bare for all to see.
As to the rest of your post, it's the usual MP narrative. Don't confuse this narrative as something "holy". it's unfortunately is it an all too common reaction by inexperienced North Americans who buy into either the Greek or the Russian narrative and propaganda.
More interesting than all that, is your point about secularisms' assault on the medical profession. My wife and I are in the bid-ness as well...
"My wife and I are in the bid-ness as well..."
DeleteJake, are you and/or your wife physicians or surgeons?
My wife is a 'physical medicine and rehabilitation' (physiatry) doc, and together we run a small group (mostly impatient) and home hospice (I run the business side of things).
DeleteOn anonymous hate mail from those in the church, we received some once. It was in the build up to the 2nd Gulf War (must have been 2002), and Touchstone Magazine published something that that lauded Met. Kallistos Ware/Jim Forest's "Orthodox Peace Fellowship's" peculiar view of worldly/political pacifism. I wrote a retort to the letters section and Touchstone published it (it may have been the same issue where David B. Hart also took apart this supposedly "Orthodox" view). We were in an large Antiochian parish at the time. Well given the ethnic/cultural ties of many of the parishners to the middle east, seemingly coming across as supporting the war (I was not - I was pointing out that Orthodoxy's non-pacifistic history/economy) did not go over to well with at least one person. Our priest I believe knew who it was, but did not tell me and I respected that. Anonymous hate mail in the church is indicative of passion and immaturity at best, probably with a bit of "mental illness" mixed in. In fact, bishops/priests get it somewhat regularly.
I have not thought of the OPF in quite a while. Just looked at their site, and I see they are "fighting slavery" this year: issuing statements and declarations with the usual political/social gospel/"activists'/Anglicans/etc. We Orthodox in NA get worked up over whose on first in the 'Greeks vs. Slavs' game but when we try to actually BE Orthodox even our good works reflects that we are made so much in the image of our protestant/RC cultural ancestry.
I just sigh and pray "may it be blessed".
Jake, one of my friends from med school is a physiatrist / PM&R doc. My wife & I are both family docs, but she's worked as a hospitalist for the last 8 years, and I've been working at a walk-in clinic the last 4 years because the progressively worsening Kafkaesque bureaucracy of the status quo was sucking the soul right out of my body. It's a challenging time to be in healthcare right now, to say the least. Lot's of crosses.
DeleteI agree, pacifism is not a consistent part of the Orthodox tradition when it comes to worldly matters of national sovereignty. Many wars have been fought & blesses as the lesser of two evils. I think there is a big difference between turning the other cheek personally & for a monarch / government to do it.
To clarify...the progressively worsening Kafkaesque bureaucracy...of family medicine / internal medicine / primary care, which is nearly suffocating from being wrapped up in so much red tape & wheel-spinning that it should be a crime. Other areas of healthcare are still suffering & frustrating, but they are at least still bearable, for now.
DeleteAs you are fully aware Timmy, its a tremendous labor to get folks outside of medicine to grasp just a little bit what's happening inside of it. Be the type of person I am (Big Mouth ;) ) I often strike up conversations with people. Just the other day I was talking with a women who was waiting picking up her granddaughter at our local RC school as I was waiting for mine. As the conversation ranged over the state of medicine today, she was telling me how our society should just expand the VA system to national system. I explained to her that the standard of care in the VA was basically frozen in 1970's. She, like almost everybody else, does not understand. Like Mikail, she actually *believes* the narrative being fed to her by her TV, computer, politicians, etc. etc.
DeleteI consider it a great mercy of God that most of the time individuals, communities, countries - all of mankind - do not get *what we deserve*. Most of the time, Providence seems to snatch us away from the worse consequences of our actions, attitudes, and beliefs. Indeed, if it was not for this ever present and prevailing Mercy "we" would not last out the week, getting what we deserve.
When it comes to health care however, Americans in the next 10 (certainly 20) years are going to get the healthcare they deserve...
"If our editor chooses to allow 'Jake' to continue posting his BS, it's on him. I won't dialogue with him anymore."
ReplyDeleteDitto.
"Dialogue" is the preferred term of liberals and revisionists which generally can be understood to mean, 'let's keep talking until you realize how wrong Christianity has been since its birth on an ever widening range of topics.'
ReplyDeleteDear Troon,
ReplyDeleteYour post is spot on. Those on this blog who are responding with constant ad hominem attacks, are revealing that they have no real arguments.
Hi David,
ReplyDeleteOf those who support the OCU,there is one issue that I have never seen anyone address (this includes Bartholomew). The OCU is raiding and seizing Churches from the UOC. They are persecuting and beating clergy and parishioners. And everyone who supports the schismatics turn a blind eye. At most, someone may say that it's not really happening. However, I know Ukrainians who are at ground zero...and this is a reality. Do you care to be the first to comment?
I know people on the ground. It is not propaganda. The union of Orthodox journalists and orthodochrtistian.com are reporting accurate stories. People who are not even parishioners are going into these villages and voting to take away the Church from the UOC..then they seize the Church and beat the clergy and people. It is like terrorism. Care to answer the question again?
ReplyDelete"... It is not propaganda. The union of Orthodox journalists and orthodochrtistian.com are reporting accurate stories...It is like terrorism..."
ReplyDeleteUh huh, uh huh, uh huh.
Mikail, you seem like a man who knows a smart deal when he sees one - there's no pulling the wool over your eyes. I know a guy who knows a guy who has just invented a perpetual motion machine that is going to revolution energy production in the future. It's not too late for you to get in on this, just send your bank account number and a $32,683.56 transfer request to iaintnophool@energy.ru and you can be on the ground floor of this incredible opportunity...
Jake, it’s Nicole again but I come up as Troon sometimes. Please give a read of the blogpost mentioned below. Saints Sophrony, John of San Francisco, and Paisios to name only a couple and many other very worthy and Patristic monks and priests and to-be in the last 100 years have been extremely concerned about the Papist pretensions of the EP. To define this very basic problem now playing out in yet another way as Russian propaganda truly makes zero sense. If you kept up with the blog of Fr Peter Heers (Greek Orthodox then living in Greece and now near St. Anthony’s MOnastery) before the Council of Crete you would be aware of this history and the reason that a number of Churches refused to go, before the Russian Church declined to go. Because the Patriarch behaved in a Roman Catholic Papal fashion before, during, and after, Patristic clergy and laity in many jurisdictions (not just Russian) refer to it not as by the misnomer “Holy Council” but as the Council of Crete. For this background info you might start with www.orthodoxethos.com.
DeleteJake,
DeleteDespite claiming sources on the ground, there's nothing that he says that can't be found in a daily dose of OrthoChristian or SPZH reading. Between him and David, it's clear who has a better command of the situation and half the time, the Ukrainian authorities can't even figure out who instigated the violence, so how is he able to? Also, to say that the UOC is outnumbered by the MP and then claim that those outnumbered are the ones commiting all the violence is in itself strange.
In one incident a Ukrainian priest went to speak to his MP counterpart during one of these church disputes but he couldn't make it within 10 meters of him until some wrestlers looking guys grabbed him. A pro-MP media source spun the incident and reported it as an attempted attack on the MP priest in order to emotionally manipulate the public.
To give you some idea of the extent of the manipulation, consider the youtube channel, "TheOrthodoxChurch". The name sounds innocent enough but it is a professional channel intended to promote the positions of the Moscow Patriarchate instead of the greater good of Orthodox Church. When I posted a comment that challenged one of its positions, my comment was deleted instantly and I mean instantly. It would have been Sunday morning Moscow time so who but professional would be working on their youtube channel at that time?
The EP definitely has its faults but the MP stands alone in terms of the manipulative tactics and deceptions that it employs.
OCU = simulacrum
DeleteDear Unknown,
Any sane individual can see that the Church seizures and violence are a one-way street...and the OCU nationalist schismatics will only increase this ungodly behaviour with time. But if you would truly like to read about manipulation and deception, take a look at this:
https://spzh.news/en/zashhita-very/66378-cerkovy-i-simulyakr-vo-chto-prevrashhajutsya-te-kto-priznajet-pcu
Nicole (Troon - by the way I am Christopher, no idea why it comes up as "Jake"),
DeleteOn Fr. Peter Heers:
I like him, I really do, but you should balance him as a scholarly and historical source. In fact, his scholarly/historical efforts are not the best. See:
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2018/12/04/can-you-baptize-without-baptism-review-the-ecclesiological-renovation-of-vatican-ii-by-fr-peter-heers/
On "Papist pretensions of the EP..." which appears to be at the heart of your concerns:
Yes, there is a very real concern here, though simplistically referencing the inherent and organic Eastern instance of this question to post Vatican I or even the history of the Papacy going back to the middle ages is *very* problematic (though it is good for sound bite comment box argumentation ;) ).
As a social scientist, I don't need to tell you that correlation does not equal causation. On the subject of the Ukraine, can it be said simplistically that correlating the actions of the EP in the Ukraine = certain "papal" ecclesiology/dogma on the part of the Greeks and/or some imminent "false union" with Rome? If you believe that, you simply are not aware of the ecclesiastical history of the Eastern Church. This question goes WAY back, all the way to the movement of the capital of the Empire to "Constantinople" and even before. Simply because of 1054, 1453, or 1517, or the triumph of secularism (pick a date) - all this and more - does not mean that the nature of the Church of the East's theological/ecclesiastical struggle with the nature of Unam Sanctum and the consequences of that nature expressed through "primacy" was or is not a real question, one that is quite frankly unanswered (though here someone will inevatably chime in with that myth, that legend, the "conciliar" nature of ecclesiastical world Orthodoxy).
You should spend some time with more neutral and better vetted scholarship on this subject (Meyendorff and/or Pelikan to name two examples). For a good and wide ranging discussion around Unam Sanctum, primacy, etc. you could check out this discussion between Fr. Matthew Baker and Fr. John Whiteford:
https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/aftoday/the_pope_and_the_patriarch
It should be noted that Fr. John is a full on MP/ROCOR/"EP's union with Rome is imminent!" partisan so no need to fear your concerns will not be considered.
I used to tell people that when it comes to the MP vs. EP, I wanted to build a summer home just outside of Moscow. On most issues, and more important *in spirit*, I still lean much more towards MP/Slavs than I do the EP/Greeks. I do NOT believe the EP's self understanding of his role in the modern world is in almost any significant way workable AT ALL. ...however, life is complex. The MP's stubbornness with the Ukrainians (who now have their own Church, language, culture, and country) is as unrealistic and damaging as the EP's stance on a myriad of issues. Worryingly, the MP's willingness to wage a classic propaganda war despite having suffered so much from just such mechanism reveals a significant double mindedness in the heart of their ecclesiastical institutions, and perhaps even deeper in spirit. Mikail and all those like him who sit in front of their screens here in NA and suck it up is just comical in its farcical proportions, and indicates a real immaturity of thought and heart. That said, it is understandable given our own religious and cultural context in NA/western civ. and "Orthodoxies" ontology within it.
"..."Church seizures" are Village conflicts of Church building ownership, a very ugly feature of inter-Orthodox conflict...Context is everything."
ReplyDeleteThis is an important point David. There are those in NA/Euro Orthodoxy who long for the Christendom of old, when every aspect of society, culture, politics, and economy easily commingled and were stamped with the Church. They long for a "return" to the village Christendom and culture even in our very different (secularized) cultureal circumstances.
It is easy to romanticize these things...
Hi David
ReplyDeleteWow! Acting like a jerk?!? I asked the question again because you always temper your response with some kind of anti-Russia propaganda nonsense or you take a jab at the journalists who are reporting the facts. I will reiterate to you one more time...the Ukrainian people have a canonical Church with a living saint as Metropolitan (Onuphriy). They do not need to follow a bunch of unordained schismatics who act like nationalist fascists as they raid Churches and beat people. Bartholomew has created an abomination and it has increased the violence and division in Ukraine. If you are going to keep hurling insults, perhaps it is better if you refrain from writing anything. And for the record...yes...this is how I speak at coffee hour. 😉
Dear David,
ReplyDeleteI have ignored nothing you have said. I just don't agree. Going back to the Philaret's time, (and you will note that even he bailed out), the schismatics were a bunch of nationalists who put their hatred for Russia ahead of God. There is absolutely no reason for the people to follow unrepentant laymen who are pretending to be a church, when they have a true Church and a holy Hierarch. The EP was careless in his effort to normalize such an abomination. Do I think there are some sincere people who are seeking God, yet following the schismatics? Yes. And I pray they find their way to Christ's true Church in Ukraine (UOC). I am sorry that you have been agitated by my words. It is okay if you are finished talking to me. Please forgive my abrasiveness. Have a blessed Nativity fast.
"...I...don't agree...schismatics...bunch of nationalists...absolutely no reason...unrepentant laymen...pretending to be a church...abomination..."
ReplyDeleteDavid,
In the end, Mikail has a *human* problem, or rather a lack of *humanity*. I do not say this as an exaggeration or as a rhetorical effort (i.e. a "poke" in some comment box on the internet ;) ). He does not recognize the *humanity* of those whom he places in the terms of is simplistic categorical, dialectical thinking - thinking that is not even the correct *kind* when it comes to thinking about humanity and human problems. Rather its the mode of thinking that works when you are trying to solve and mathematical equation, or build a bridge, get a man on the moon, etc. etc.
The fact that he rates his thinking as "canonical" or "theological" is of course an error, but that is not the where the original error lies and that is not where Mikail, this "man without a chest" lost his humanity and yes his thinking and very ontology is a species of Lewis's description of the modern Cartesian "man", remembering that Lewis point was that these individuals have lost something essential of there humanity - they are (quite literally) no longer human.
Now, of course Mikail's is species is an ironic twist, in that on the surface there is Christianity (and thus humanity) and religious rejection of the Cartesian Self. However, this is just a religious gloss on an otherwise essential Cartesian/Kantian Self. Mikail, just like you and I and EVERYONE in our secular society, was taught to think and "be" this way.
Our conversion in the Church is Mercy slowly turning ("repenting") us from *being* this secular, Cartesian, categorical roBOT, and thus revealing our humanity from the inside out, so that we can *be* human - which is a necessary first condition and ground of *being* Christian and *being* saved.
While I am sympathetic to your efforts to illicit and engage a *human* Mikail, I don't need to tell you that so far there are no fruits. Like many (too many) NA converts (his biography is instructive - evangelical, then trad RC, then pharisaical "Orthodoxy") he has only begun (if that) the examination of his true self, his lack-of-humanity Cartesian/categorical existence.
When a Self is self-created and (quite literally) metaphysically responsible for itself, it is very (very very) anxious. The paradoxical, mysterious, and "salvation - but not yet - a Cross first!" nature of Christianity is too much to bear. Who can bear Love, which always has Sacrifice attached to it as part of its nature? Only a human, and a human who is a Christian, can bear the sacrificial reality of Love. A categorical "self" can not bear Love because Love does not and can not fit into the terms of the dialectic. To the dialectic, Love is and can only be an "abomination".
In any case, a bit of explanation as to why I speak to roBOTs as they are, BOTs. Can any good come from it? It is my hope...
Fr Lynch, an OCA priest, does a beautiful job in this post from his blog Inkless Pen of stating the history of the struggle against Papal pretensions in Orthodoxy and the name designations given to those with these damaging pretensions by Holy Patriarchs, beginning before the Roman Catholic Church left Orthodoxy. Jake and all, please give a read and consider: https://inklesspen.blog/2019/11/16/of-this-unity-they-speak/
ReplyDeleteDear David, with reference to your questions about the Ukraine, you might check out the blog Inkless Pen by OCA priest Fr Lynch who has spend time in the Ukraine, been educated there and recently visited. I mention his latest post below on a different pertinent topic but earlier posts do contain that info. https://inklesspen.blog/2019/11/16/of-this-unity-they-speak/
ReplyDeleteMet. Athanasios of Limassol (Cyprus), a respected Patristic hierarch and the real-life “Father Maximos” in the wonderful book of spiritual journey to Athos “Mountain of Silence”, is typical of the stable (unchanging) Patristic non-Russian point of view on the situation in the Ukraine: https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2019/11/16/met-athanasios-of-limassol-on-patriarch-theodoros-commemorating-epiphany-on-cyprus/
ReplyDeleteAwesome news, Nicole. I love Metropolitan Athanasios of Limassol. He cannot be bribed or threatened! He speaks the truth in love!
DeleteFather John Deket, rector of the St. Elijah Church of the UOC in the village of Rososhka, Rakhov district, Transcarpathian region, was threatened with murder. The attacker pushed the priest's Matushka in the chest and threw something in her face. The police will not help.
ReplyDeletePresident of the Interparliamentary Assembly on Orthodoxy (IAO) Sergey Gavrilov fears that the process launched by Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople in Ukraine may cause massive schisms of Orthodox Churches around the world. He also called the radical attacks on the UOC, "a manifestation of terrorism".
ReplyDelete"...the process launched by Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople in Ukraine may cause massive schisms of Orthodox Churches around the world..."
DeleteGood. The status quo ethno-nationalistic ontology of this Church of the East was always a thin and thread depending upon isolation (historical, political, of both the Greeks and the Slavs) on the one hand and everyone staying in their sandbox on the other. Apparently, silly "multi-jurisdicionalism" of the 20th century was not enough to bring this sad two legged stool to the floor, perhaps the EP's loving actions in the face of the MP' stubborn legalism is what will bring Orthodoxies open secrent of a weak Unam Sanctum out of the closet. Maybe, just maybe, a REAL ecumenical council is in the cards sooner rather than later.
And just think Mikail, know-nothing propaganda puppy dogs such as yourself might have had a small (very very small) part in it all, even if just as fools ranting and raving from the outside ;)
"...in connection with the “Ukrainian issue”, we can note not only the fact of the elimination of an apostolic succession among schismatics and those who entered into communion with them but also the destruction of the principle of catholicity. The whole situation around the OCU – from the beginning to the end – is an attack on the Catholicity of the Church."
ReplyDelete(Konstantin Shemliuk)
But your sources don't agree with one another. If what this K. Shemliuk says is correct about those who entered into communion with schismatics, then what is Metropolitan Athanasios of Limassol, whom you praised above as a true hierarch, doing concelebrating with the Patriarch of Alexandria whom you consider to be Judas?
ReplyDeleteSo while your views line up with Schemliuk's, they don't agree with the Metropolitan's at all.
I consider him to be Judas-like. If he reposed without repenting, the he will be another Judas. Metropolitan Athanasios was not very pleased over the shenanigans pulled by the Patriarch.
DeleteRead this:
https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2019/11/16/met-athanasios-of-limassol-on-patriarch-theodoros-commemorating-epiphany-on-cyprus/
"that doesn't change the pastoral reality in Ukraine and that recognizing the OCU was the right thing to do pastorally"
ReplyDeleteAnd here is our major point of disagreement. I think that it was the worst possible action, pastorally and otherwise. It has caused massive schism throughout world Orthodox which will only worsen with time. The Ukrainians already had a canonical Church led by a holy Hierarch.
I also believe that one has to be rather naive to think that the US State Department did not have a heavy hand in Bartholomew's decision.
"BUT, that doesn't mean the OCU also should be forced to 'submit to the MP'.
ReplyDeleteI get it David. I am a history buff. I understand how deep some of the wounds run. The communists did much damage to Ukraine. However, the answer was not to set up a parallel "Church" (in another Church's jurisdiction) composed of the very anathematized unordained schismatics that the EP had always recognized for decades. It was the worst thing he could have done...a ripple of schism that is being felt across the globe. The UOC is not the communist party. The current "hierarchs" (including Philaret) of the OCU could have repented and returned to the canonical Church...but they chose another path. It is true that we are not going to agree on this issue, but nevertheless, I consider you my brother in Christ. May our Lord Jesus Christ and Panaghia be with you also.