Athens, November 28 (Interfax) - The name of the head of Ukraine's new church, the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, (OCU) Metropolitan Yepifaniy Dumenko was for the first time mentioned by a hierarch of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church during a liturgy service.
Bulgaria's Metropolitan Nikolay of Plovdiv led the morning service at a church in Greece's Langadas, the Greek website Romalewfronimati reported. During the liturgy service, a deacon read a local diptych (a list containing heads of Orthodox Churches to be mentioned in certain order), including the OCU head, the website said.
Three hierarchs of the Greek Orthodox Church - two metropolitan and one bishop - concelebrated the liturgy with the Bulgarian metropolitan.
The Langadas Diocese is on the Moscow Patriarchate's list of Greek Orthodox dioceses in Greece undesirable to visit by pilgrims as their ruling metropolitans have come to liturgical communion or communion of prayer with OCU representatives.
So far, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church has not given a definitive answer as to whether it recognizes the uncanonical church of Ukraine set up with support from Constantinople and the former Ukrainian administration a year ago.
Monday, December 2, 2019
Does this actually signal anything?
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Our position is that we recognize Metropolitan Onoufry and do not commune the Epiphanyites in Bulgaria. However we are in communion with the Phanar and the Church of Greece. A rather delicate balancing act.
ReplyDeleteI would take a deep breath before reading much into this. When you are in somebody else's church, they will normally dictate who is being commemorated. If this becomes a pattern or the Bulgarians start doing it in their own churches, then we will have a problem. That said, my gut does not think think the Bulgarians will go down this road. Of course my gut said the same thing about Alexandria.
ReplyDeleteI agree with John, in that "more" is probably needed to read these tea leaves.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I don't agree with him in the nature of the "problem". The scorched earth, legalistic, "canonical" reading of the MP propaganda machine and its followers was and is never going to be reality. Real people in real churches in this real (fallen) world do not fit into such a simplistic schema.
If I am correct it was the deacon reading the commemorations, not the Metropolitan of Plovdiv himself, may be wrong tho.
ReplyDeleteAnd this is a very significant detail! I have read the same thing.
DeleteBulgaria would be wise to steer clear of the schismatics.
ReplyDeleteHere we go again. MP partisan mouthpieces...eh? I have not seen anything as partisan and corrupt as the current meanderings of Constantinople in my entire lifetime. I have very good friends who are visiting America from Bulgaria. They tell me that there are some very solid Hierarchs who will never recognize the schismatic laypeople who are trying to pretend to be Hierarchs in the OCU. And, on the other hand there are some who have been pressured greatly by Bartholomew and various political entities. As you say, David...we shall see.
ReplyDeleteThe UOJ has been reporting some of the most real and honest stories that I have seen throughout this entire ordeal...so I don't know what planet you've been living on. The horror of this schism has already revealed itself. Now it's up to the hierarchs to show some courage. The only one making threats is the man in Istanbul who claims to be first without equals as he threatens to revoke the autocephaly of any Church which dares to oppose him.
ReplyDeletePS...Are you sure that the Ukrainians in America have been "worked out"?
"The only difference between the UOC in America and the OCU is geography. Same "schism," same "Canonical Issues." This is why the MP's opposition now rings so hollow to me and betrays the geopolitical and ecclesial kicking match between the EP and MP. That is what it is really about..."
DeleteWell stated. Not that the MP propaganda bots will be anything other than a football themselves ;)
Personally, I do not attend the Ukrainian Churches in America because of their canonical issues...but that's another story. And for your information, this IS about the OCU. Where have you been? Bartholomew raided the territory of another Church's jurisdiction after decades of recognizing it as the jurisdiction of the Church of Russia. He continually agreed with the fact that the two schismatic groups were not validly ordained (or defrocked)...then he did a 180 in his hypocrisy. But the worst part...he now concelebrates with a group of laymen who are pretending to be clergy and hierarchs. You can't make this stuff up! Anathema!
ReplyDeleteWow! Is it necessary for you to keep writing dissertations with every post? It is much more than territory...and you know it. It is about the holy canons of the Church. And for your information, there are a number of very good tradition Greek bishops who are standing with Metropolitan Onuphriy and the canonical Church (UOC).
DeleteTHE OCU are not valid clergy. I think you know that in your heart.
If you think all the Churches are going to start recognizing the layman, Epiphany, you are dreaming.
Quite frankly, the Green Patriarch is cut from the same cloth as Francis in Rome. I think they should unite sooner than later and let all the phanariotes join follow. Then the Orthodox can continue in peace...and you can commune from Epiphany AND Francis! 😉
Wow! Another dissertation!
ReplyDeleteCareful with your American Ukrainian comparisons. They are apples and oranges. Although there is similarity in the questionable nature of their ordinations.
The OCU are not clergy. Even Bart admitted this until his power grab last year.
Many solid bishops of the COG and Alexandria do not recognize the OCU laymen. As I predicted, Bart is causing internal schisms within other Churches(and he has divided the holy mountain).
You are correct. It is about Bartholomew going rogue...and if you follow him into oblivion, you will also cease to be Orthodox. I pray that it won't be so my brother.
"...The OCU are not clergy..."
DeleteIn truth, it's the opposite in that by the letter of the law it is the MP's "jurisdiction" and uncanonical sect in the Ukraine that is not canonical. The Ukraine is not the MP's canonical territory - never was, and never will be. When will these schismatics repent I wonder? Are they destined for Hell? I pray it won't be so my brother...
"...what is the difference between the UOC-North America and the OCU? Both come from the same "Fascist and Schismatic" tree. Why is one ok, and the other is not?"
DeleteOne possible reason is that it goes against the policy/desire for "containment" (to choose a word) of jurisdictionalism/ethno-nationalism. While the EP, MP, and everyone else are obviously hypocritical about jurisdictinalism/ethnonationalism (as they accept it in Europe, NA, SA, east Asia, etc.) they have managed up until now to keep jurisdictionalism out of traditional Slave/Greek/Arab lands. All this rests of course on the recently deceased "gentleman's agreement" around ontology of the Church post-Empire. Is Ukraine contextually but the usual Greek vs. Slave back and forth within this agreement, or is it evidence that the agreement has fundamentally broken down within the context of a modern world? I lean toward the latter obviously, but most within the Church seem to want to continue to live the agreement, however strained and artificial.
In any case, a non propaganda bot reply to your question...
David, I liked your 8:05 post - it framed the historical (but more than "mere" history in the modern sense) reality of the rapid world-and-Church changes of the last 100 years quite well.
DeleteWhen you say
"... willingness of both sides to give up something. The MP has to accept the OCU in some form (maybe not the Tomos). The EP has to accept that the granting of autocephaly and other acts of primacy have to be truly conciliar, and not just the acts of the EP Synod..."
it reveals we don't really know how to even begin. What does "conciliar" really look like for the Church in the modern world? Our current model is so anachronistic that we don't even know where to begin, or have a real picture of where we want to go.
The deep work of Florvorsky is informative, if only to reveal how even a person with the faculties and command of theology/ecclesiology such as him ends up at an very open ended "neoPatristic synthesis" which itself was but a pointer, an outline at most, yet itself so difficult that most folks (even those who go to seminary or make an academic study of it) get it wrong and reduce it to some lessor thing. Lord have mercy indeed.
Hi David,
ReplyDeleteI will not comment on your UOC-USA comparisons because I do not care to start another series of dissertations about them. Fr. John Whiteford reads this blog. Perhaps he will be kind enough to answer your concerns. But I do have one question. Are you saying that the hierarchy of the UOC-USA have no valid ordinations... like today's OCU?
NOW...there is no pastoral "economy" in the invasion of another Churches jurisdiction. There is no pastoral "economy" in allowing laymen to pretend they are hierarchs and clergy as they are handed a pseudo-tomos. And what have been the fruits of this act in the past year? Church seizures. Beatings of clergy and parishioners of the canonical Church (UOC). Internal schisms within the Church of Greece and Alexandria. A divided Mt. Athos. Enmity throughout world Orthodoxy. And the list goes on. No, David. This was far from pastoral "economy". This was a Church dividing power grab.
I will ask you again. The OCU does not have valid ordinations. Does the UOC-USA?
DeleteSee this: https://orthochristian.com/121018.html
Villages are not fighting over Churches. The schismatics are seizing them.
There are internal schisms within the the COG and Alexandria. These will become more pronounced if a synod is not convened.
It is more than jurisdiction, David, and you know it. Bartholomew is in communion with a group of laymen playing pretend Church and it is tearing world Orthodoxy apart. The sooner you acknowledge this, the better off you will be.
The OCU's so-called ordinations are NOT validated. Many were never ordained with apostolic succession to begin with, and the others were defrocked. The fact that Bartholomew decided to go full hypocrisy and give them a tomos, does not magically normalize their status. Did you read the article I linked for you?
ReplyDeleteThe hierarchs within the two Churches which recognized the schismatics, who do not agree, will not commemorate Epiphany. If this continues, I assure you they will break communion.
I have addressed everything you have said, but you do not have ears to hear.
You have answered your own question. If the UOC-USA ordinations are validated, there are no parallels because the OCU's ordinations are not validated.
David, you keep talking in circles. If you are moved to recognize and honor this heinous schism which Bartholmew has created, then go for it. You will never convince me otherwise, and I will defend the Church against this abomination until the end of my days.
"...The OCU's so-called ordinations are NOT validated... Bartholomew decided to go full hypocrisy and give them a tomos, does not magically normalize their status... If the UOC-USA ordinations are validated, there are no parallels because the OCU's ordinations are not validated..."
DeleteI would say this is a strange version of RC ecclesiology, but it's not even that - at best it's a reductio ad absurdum. Your just making it up as you go along - probably until the end of your days...
It seems to me that after decades of chaos, there was finally a "re-ordination" that was acceptable...and some Churches and clergy were still skeptical. I am not particularly knowledgeable about the situation because there were so many twists and turns. I choose to not attend Liturgies at their Churches or receive communion from their clergy. My reasons I will not discuss on a blog.
DeleteHowever, 1/3 of the so-called bishops of the so-called OCU were ordained by a defrocked deacon who ended up in prison in Australia! The others were either defrocked and/or anathematized.
I suppose the similarities are the chaos surrounding each group. But it is really quite different...and for you to hang your hat on this....is quite absurd.
Now here is my point David.
ReplyDeleteOur conversations are a perfect example of the massive division caused by Bartholomew. At the end of the day, we each must attend to our conscience. For my part, I will not follow Bartholomew down this road. I do not recognize the schismatic OCU or anyone who chooses to commemorate Epiphany. You, on the other hand, feel that Bartholomew has done nothing out of the ordinary.
We are following different paths according to conscience. I believe that Bartholomew has initiated a fissure that has the potential to be on the same level as the Great Schism.
These are sad days. But the gates of hell will not prevail.
God's will be done.
"This week was the feast of St. Porphyrios..."
DeleteLossky wrote a book titled "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church". If St. Porphyrios had been a writer, his might have been titled "The Mystical Ecclesiology of the Eastern Church". So expansive, the whole world is "in" the Church mystically even if at the same time the whole world is separated from her.
Sergei Fudel (spiritual son of Fr. and martyr Paul Forensky) puts it this way:
"The Church is a mystery of overcoming lonely solitude. Overcoming solitude must be experienced realistically...Quite often we come to realize very unexpectedly that the Church is an all-human reality. One day, riding on the subway, I saw a woman sitting with a little girl of about two on her lap. Over the mother’s shoulder the child stretched her blue-mittened hand to the brake handle, almost, but not quite, reaching it. Suddenly I noticed a well-dressed young man watching her too. Our eyes met and we both smiled. We both sensed that the little mitten was a pure treasure of our common humanity. The brake handle was a symbol of some outside power, a key to the cold knowledge of good and evil. but the blue mitten stood for warmth, for the mysterious, unselfconscious innocence of childhood. We smiled to each other as if we were not strangers; for a moment, we were of one warm, innocent heart. This is what the Church is.”
A quote I always remember:
DeleteThe Church is not an institution containing a Mystery; it is a Mystery containing an institution.
“I think the Tomos itself was a good thing with good intentions.”
ReplyDeleteI believe the tomos was a bad and divisive thing with bad intentions.
“HAH did not cause the division in our Church”
I believe he caused massive division.
“I still believe in my heart that recognizing the OCU was the right thing to do”
I will never believe it was the right thing to do. And sadly, I think time will only worsen the situation.
“I also will not turn against the Russian Church, and would gladly commune with you and them, but you will not have me.”
Hey brother, if we met in one of the Orthodox Churches or monasteries in which I frequent, I will gladly commune with you. But you will not see me in a Church which recognizes or commemorates Epiphany as a true Hierarch. He is nothing but a laymen.
“This week was the feast of St. Porphyrios. I would recommend reading his life and sayings if you have not already done so. He is a saint who is dear to me and a model for how to approach Christ.”
I love him!
“I for one hope that a Council does happen at some point”
And on this, my brother, I whole-heartedly agree. Blessings on the remainder of the Nativity Fast.
Years ago I spoke with a priest who mused that, just as we speak of the Age of the Councils, we may someday speak of the Age of the Patriarchs as a bygone time. Will a system that developed to divide the churches of the Roman empire into administrative units last forever? Probably it will always be there on paper, but might it collapse as a reality (as, I'd say it has in the US)? The system seems to be in crisis now, but what could really replace it? True global sobornost, I suppose, but how would the Church ever get there? The gates of hell will not prevail.
ReplyDeleteChrist is in our midst! My dear Abba, 22+years ago Elder Joseph the Younger saw this all happening within the course of my lifetime. He linked it with the final demise of the Roman See, and with Orthodoxy being the only credible witness to the world of the saving Truth Who is Christ the Lord. He also said that this would signal restoration of all things with the coming of Christ. At the time I was a bit perplexed, but now I am indeed witnessing the prophetic wisdom of this Athonite Father. Christ will be with His Church until the end; no such guarantee is given to any of the patriarchates which may or may not be in concert with the Truth of Christ. Let us pray, fast, be sober and be watchful, upholding the Faith by the Grace of God, and by our own faithfulness to the Gospel. From what I can see it is Africa that seems to be the greatest source of spiritual vigor that the Church demonstrates today. May you holy patron assist us all with his prayers before the Throne of Glory.
DeleteThanks and Amen. It seems to me too that we may have to look more and more to Africa for faithfulness to the fullness of the Gospel. All of us may be needing to look more and more to our monasteries and other islands of faith in the Church, rather than to quasi-political structures.
Delete