(ROC) - Heads and representatives of Local Orthodox Churches are to meet next week in Amman on the initiative of Patriarch Theophilos of Jerusalem. In an exclusive interview to RIA Novosti, Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk, head of the Moscow Patriarchate department for external church relations, tells who will discuss what and when and what will be the aims of the delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church to be led by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia.
– Your Eminence, when exactly will the pan-Orthodox conference take place in Amman and how is it to be called correctly?
– According to the letter from Patriarch Theophilos of Jerusalem, the main event will take place on February 26. The delegations are expected to arrive on February 25 and leave on February 27. It is more correct to refer to it not as a pan-Orthodox conference, but rather a fraternal meeting of Primates and representatives of Local Churches.
– What are the aims of this meeting, with what tasks and hopes will Patriarch Kirill go there?
– The aim of this gathering as outlined by Patriarch Theophilos is to discuss the preservation of church unity. Regrettably, as of today, there is the fact of existing divisions and serious disagreements among the Local Churches. There is a danger of a deep schism in the Orthodox Church. These divisions can be overcome only through an honest and fraternal dialogue and joint efforts of all the universally recognized autocephalous Churches. We hope that the forthcoming meeting will become an important stage in this direction.
– Which Churches have already agreed to attend this meeting and which have refused to attend and why?
– The Russian Church is not the initiator nor the organizer of this event and therefore it has no exact information about the number and composition of its participants.
As far as we can judge from the information available to us, it is expected that the meeting will be attended by several autocephalous Churches. Meanwhile, a refusal to attend was publicly stated, along with Patriarch Bartholomew, by the Primates of the Churches of Greece, Cyprus and Albania, who maintain the Patriarch of Constantinople alone can convene such events.
– Will Metropolitan Onufriy, the Primate of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church, go to Amman?
– The composition of our delegation will be announced later.
– What do you know about the interference of some politicians who dissuaded primates from attending the meeting? What is the role of the USA in this story?
– The political interference in the process of creating the so-called “Orthodox Church of Ukraine” was obvious from the very beginning. We are fully aware that the ensuing recognition of the schismatics by the Churches of Greece and Alexandria happened not without participation of external forces.
We know that pressure was also made on some Primates concerning the issue of the meeting in Amman. Anyway, it is difficult to interpret in any other way the refusal of the Archbishop of Athens to attend this meeting, which he announced to journalists immediately after the meeting with the American ambassador. I will remind you that he also announced the recognition of the “OCU” after repeated meeting with the same diplomat.
– Are common celebrations and meetings with state officials planned in Amman?
– As it follows from the invitation letters of His Beatitude Patriarch Theophilos of Jerusalem, they do not plan common divine services in Amman.
It is expected that the participants will meet with King Abdullah ibn-Hussein of Jordan.
– Are more such meetings possible and how often and where?
– We hope that the meeting in Amman will make the beginning of other similar meetings that our Orthodox family needs so much now.
Friday, February 21, 2020
Met. Hilarion interviewed on upcoming Amman meeting
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I used to think that Met. Hilarion had the character to rise above his position and role (as a company man) inside the institutional Russian Church.
ReplyDelete"...Anyway, it is difficult to interpret in any other way the refusal of the Archbishop of Athens to attend this meeting {followed by the usual cold war/post-cold-war political attributions}..."
Try harder.
**We know that pressure was also made on some Primates concerning the issue of the meeting in Amman. Anyway, it is difficult to interpret in any other way the refusal of the Archbishop of Athens to attend this meeting, which he announced to journalists immediately after the meeting with the American ambassador. I will remind you that he also announced the recognition of the “OCU” after repeated meeting with the same diplomat.**
ReplyDeleteWhat is the half-life, I wonder, of government interference?
Should we therefore evaluate statements by the MP based on whether or not they met with Putin or other Russian?
"What is the half-life, I wonder, of government interference?"
ReplyDeleteAt least when it comes to the Russian vs. Greek "Orthodoxy", the 2nd vs. 3rd Rome, the answer appears to be > 1000 years.
Too bad so many English speaking Orthodox, even considering the understandable anxiety of their own personal/cultural religious circumstances, Have swallowed (hook, line, and sinker) the "canonical" Russian propaganda and the larger idea that the ROC is the keeper and savior of True Orthodoxy...
One reason why the English speaking world has swallowed the propaganda is that the MP is the beneficiary of a network that seeks to manipulate audiences through a variety of deceptive means, including:
Delete-photoshopping pictures
-social media, youtube channels etc, staffed by professionals (post a polite but unwanted comment on a particular youtube channel and watch it get deleted in real-time on Sunday morning Moscow time
-fake news, aka slander that "traditionalists" instantly share on social media before they head off to "All-night vigil". In today's instalment, the Greek Archiodiocese has (again!) opened communion to the non-Orthodox.
-hackers (think Big Bear)
I don't know about you folks but if I was the target of such an adversary, I would probably be talking to American diplomats too.
Rocor has definitely also been wrapped up in this same network.
Yes I’ve personally seen Russians behind every tree and around every corner manipulating everything. Thank goodness the American government has Russia surrounded with nuclear missiles and military bases all around the world. Can you imagine what would happen if an Orthodox country were allowed to recover and maintain independence without American oversight? Perish the thought.
Delete"...Can you imagine what would happen if an Orthodox country were allowed to recover and maintain independence without American oversight?"
DeleteNot that you meant it (I don't think), but this is a good description of the Ukraine, if you replace "American" with "Russian" oversight. They have their own nation state, culture, and now newly independent (from Russia) Church. We will see what happens in the future and if they are able to withstand Russian "oversight"...
Well at best you could argue they’ve traded Russian oversight for American, not to mention the schismatics have less autonomy under EPB’s tomos than their legitimate counterparts do in the MP.
DeleteHonestly I’d like to see Russia grant autocephally to Ukraine, even tho they haven’t wanted it, but that’s something the Ukrainian Orthodox would have to seek, something they chose to vote against years ago. I’d be fine with them putting it to a vote once more, but again not our call.
America’a manipulation in Ukraine has been blatant, from Joe Biden and his son getting rich, oh and promoting the overthrow of their democratically elected government by neo nazis, to the State Department lobbying for the schismatics to be recognized.
You can claim Russian shenanigans all day but if you pretend America isn’t guilty of manipulating the situation then there’s some serious Cold War propaganda hypocrisy or anti-Russian sentiments left over in your system. (To be clear not calling ‘you’ out specifically if this doesn’t apply to you, but I’ve definitely seen this in the comments)
Where do you see anti-Russian sentiments in this discussion?
Delete"...Well at best you could argue they’ve traded Russian oversight for American...America’a manipulation in Ukraine has been blatant, from Joe Biden and his son getting rich, oh and promoting the overthrow of their democratically elected government by neo nazis, to the State Department lobbying for the schismatics to be recognized....You can claim Russian shenanigans all day but if you pretend "America isn’t guilty of manipulating the situation then there’s some serious Cold War propaganda hypocrisy or anti-Russian sentiments left over in your system..."
DeleteThis is not right at all. America's influence on Ukraine (politics and Church) is recent, minuscule, and blundering nonsense compared to Russia's and Europe's (i.e. RC) 1000 use of Ukraine as a frontier political football. No offense, but you sound like you have a very shallow grasp of Ukrainian history and current events, one that probably comes almost entirely from the Russian MP propaganda machine and those English speaking Orthodox who endlessly repeat it.
By the way, politically, I truly wish Trump and Putin would marry each other...it would be about the only "gay" marriage I would approve of but it would be worth it for the damage it would cause the Military Industrial Complex and the swamp hawks that rule both parties here in AmeriKa...
Well what i’ve said is well documented. You conveniently ignored all my points in favor of your go to “Your position is clearly ignorant compared to mine, which I won’t bother backing up with anything other than my stated opinion”.
DeleteRussia isn’t even close to perfect, nowhere near as bad as we like to think in the West, but they’re not a perfect holy Orthodox empire.
Nevertheless America has spent the better part of the last century empire building around the world, the list of countries we’ve invaded, bombed, and fostered regime change through assassination, and countless other sordid methods, is staggering. You really have to be indoctrinated or not paying attention to miss how aggressively we have forced our will on other countries.
Russia is one of the few countries left that poses a legitimate threat to our supremacy, we’ve done everything we can to isolate them and surround them militarily and politically. Again I have no vested interested in Russia, but It amazes me how we are the constant aggressor but our media convinces us that those scary Russians are out to get us. We do the same thing with China of course, how dare they have a navy in the South China Sea! Don’t they know we rule the world? They’re clearly being dangerous and aggressive for existing in our orbit, which is all encompassing.
You can say our influence on Ukraine is “recent, minuscule and blundering nonsense” but apparently those are descriptions for the results of a violent revolution and the promotion of a devastating schism.
But again I honestly hate that a conversation that should be primarily focused on Orthodox principles is reduced to political opinions, which are mostly biased based on personal feelings and perspective, but I know your mantra “ecclesiology is downstream of culture” so apparently we have no need for theology, canons, tradition, or spiritual principles, which are incapable of solving problems.
Honestly its amazing the Church has been successful at all considering that Culture is apparently more powerful than Orthodox principles and spiritual realities.
"...Honestly its amazing the Church has been successful at all considering that Culture is apparently more powerful than Orthodox principles and spiritual realities..."
DeleteWell, yes the 'failure' of the Gospel in this world is a central message of the Christianity. A "new" creation, a death and then only after a resurrection and eschaton, etc. etc. The Church is in the end a spiritual reality, hope, and presence of that 'which is not yet' and really can not be without the death and 'restoration' of all things.
That, taken together with St. Paul's central teaching (Roman's 7) of the "Holy Law" that is nevertheless not sufficient (it only leads to death {i.e. it "kills" Paul} and not beyond death to a new creation and resurrection and fulfillment and restoration...) - all this points to the fundamental character of ALL law, including the kind always central to this discussion - canonical law.
You talk of a "devastating schism", but you (or at least your fellow Russian 'canonical' cohorts) never seem to escape the Law, the legal, and the view that the millions of Orthodox Christians in the Ukraine who are part of this "schism" are actually human beings and Orthodox Christians, and not mere terms in a legal dialectic and grand cultural conflict between Greek and Slav. In other words, instead of human beings made in His Image this thinking leads to a (canonical) legalistic reduction of the Gospel and has these people as mere "schismatics".
Frankly, it's nothing less than inhuman (let alone Christian) So under the rubric of "solving problems" and "not throwing the baby out with the bathwater" and allegedly learning the lessons of Protestant and RC history, this Russian "canonical" way of ontology and 'conciliarity' is in fact was is "new" and worldly and not fixing any problem at all excepting perhaps the one deep in the anxious heart of Russian cultural mythology - "Kievan Rus"...
The legalistic "canonical" Church is not traditional or Orthodox at all...
Beyond this however I agree that this could be the beginning (or the end of the beginning - the real beginning was the end of the Empire 1000 years ago) of a schism as significant to Orthodoxy as 1054.
I cant force a reconciliation even if I want it, but neither can I ignore the importance of Orthodox practice and spiritual realities.
DeleteSt. Basil the Great in no uncertain terms declared that anyone who goes into schism loses the Holy Spirit, and the grace of ordination, and they cannot legitimately ordain anyone or baptize anyone.
The tragedy of Ukraine is that a handful of selfish men who were called to be shepherd’s to the flock of Christ were upset that they didn’t get the power or influence or freedom they felt they deserved. Philaret didn’t start the schism because of some crisis of faith or conscience, he was upset that he didn’t get elected Patriarch of Moscow! So he made himself Patriarch of his own church, and ordained Epiphany and others.
The lay people who have fallen under these wolves, are no doubt ignorant of the truth and every effort should be made to save them, but giving rogue clergy and self ordained frauds carte blanche is without precedent.
Again i’m not saying that there isn’t a road to reconciliation and perhaps even taking certain of the clergy on a case by case basis, but EPB just rubber stamped schism, in an area he had no jurisdiction over.
Being unhappy with the problem in Ukraine is totally understandable, but it’s akin to looking at a broken economy and being upset that it hasn’t been fixed, and rather than allowing the process of recovery to take place, you enact a communist revolution to solve poverty. Best of motives, worst results.
The fault lies primarily with Philaret and his ilk refusing to be humble or give up power, and EPB made a bad situation worse. A small schism has become a massive schism, regardless of intentions its clear that the methodology being used is not helpful.
While I would never "pretend America isn’t guilty of manipulating the situation" in Ukraine, unlike Russia we stopped well short of military invasion. And, speaking of "Cold War propaganda hypocrisy," once again we have American and Western voices willingly embracing a new version of kind of moral equivalence between Russia and the USA.
ReplyDeleteUS bases are a response to the threat of Soviet invasion. As events in Crimea (and earlier in Georgia) illustrate, this threat has carried over to Putin's Russia.
Whatever the sins of American foreign policy in Ukraine, there is arguably a sizable portion of that country's population that would see their country more closely aligned with the West rather than Russia. To dismiss this as the result of American propaganda is to absolve Russia for its own willingness to engage in the unjust invasion of its neighbors. That this involved killing Orthodox Christians compounds the moral wrong.
Well if you want to ignore the fact that Crimea is overwhelmingly Russian and voted to return to Russia, given that Crimea was gifted to Ukraine under the USSR when it was merely a symbolic gift, without meaning given that they did not distinguish between national citizenship within the USSR, and the fact that the current government is the result of a violent overthrow of a democratically elected government, with American aid. Okay.
DeleteAnd sure, we have 134 military bases around the world, with nuclear missiles, and we wage constant war for dominance over resources political influence and primarily to keep the sell of weapons popular, killing hundreds of thousands of non combatants, that we have documented Lord only knows how many actually die, to protect the world from Communism. Sure. Russia meanwhile has 2 military bases in countries other than their own, both of which were requested by the host countries, unlike many if not most of ours.
Still arguing over which Empire carries more guilt, while fairly obvious is still rather pointless. We’re supposed to be focused on Orthodox canonical practice, which regardless of political views, has been violated. Whether you think the Russians are violating it or the Greeks comes down to a separate variety of factors that i’m done trying to convince people over.
Canonical practice, law, church 'economy' - all this is downstream from culture on the one hand and the Gospel on the other. To focus on the legal (canonical) argument is to focus on the wrong thing. The long 1000 year dissolution of this Church of the East into ethno-nationalism is never going to be 'solved' on a canonical level because that is not where the problem originates...
DeleteThe Church’s history has always been a mess, it would be a lot cleaner if humanity wasn’t constantly getting involved, but in the mean time I can’t think of a single time in Church history where a Saint of the Church said “You know what? Canons, theology, tradition?” That won’t help us, lets solve this from a cultural angle”.
DeleteWhether this is the beginning of the messiest schism since 1054 or whether it gets resolved by the hierarchs in council through the grace of the Holy Spirit, I’m not interested in trying something “new”, the Church has a way of doing things and throwing the baby out with the bath water didn’t work out too well for Protestants or the Catholics.
Though again its worth pointing out, we can sit here and play backseat driver all day but we’re not the ones who will solve this, Christ appointed bishops to guide His Church so either they figure this mess out or its just another sign of the end.
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